Who do you think has the better LHW resume between Hopkins and Jones Jr?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by bailey, May 16, 2020.


Who do you think has the better LHW resume between Hopkins and Jones Jr

  1. Hopkins

    17 vote(s)
    42.5%

  2. Jones

    23 vote(s)
    57.5%
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  1. bailey

    bailey Loyal Member Full Member

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    Some of those fights you noted weren't at LHW.
    The thread is just what they did in the weight and not if they beat a fighter at another weight who moved in to the division at another time
     
    bailey, May 22, 2020
    bailey, May 22, 2020
    #121
  2. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Even if you take out the Hopkins, Toney and Johnson fights, it's still clear in my mind.
     
    lufcrazy, May 22, 2020
    lufcrazy, May 22, 2020
    #122
  3. theanatolian

    theanatolian Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Which one of Ottke's wins can be debated over soundly beating Froch who went on to dominate Bute just 5 months after? And Froch beat Johnson 8 rds to 4, It was Ottke's win that's debatabel and yes, I've seen both fights. I maintain that Ward's wins over Kessler and Froch are head and shoulders above any of Ottke's, which is not the case with Jones and Hopkins as B-Hop's best win is a guy who Roy also beat.

    Reid, Larsen, Mitchell, Brewer. Yes, Froch himself had some controversial wins(Pascal isn't one of them) and he should've lost to Dirrell but I never said I rated Froch higher than Ottke so comparing Froch's career to Ottke's is just spinning and It's irrelevant. Though you do make a point that Ottke's career is more comparable to Froch's, the main difference being that Froch stepped up against the elite level opposition, Ottke didn't.

    As I said, we haven't seen enough of Pavlik at LHW, he's irrelevant to B-Hop's career there. And also as I said, Ward ranks higher than Ottke with his 2 wins vastly superior to Ottke's(decisive wins at that). That's not the case with Roy and B-Hop. Unlike Ward and Ottke, those two beat similar level opposition at 175 and not only Roy reigned for a longer period beat more ranked contenders, he was also more dominant than B-Hop.
     
    theanatolian, May 22, 2020
    theanatolian, May 22, 2020
    #123
  4. theanatolian

    theanatolian Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    What on earth is this? "Hopkins beat Tarver just as convincingly as Pavlik, therefore Pavlik would be just as formidable as Tarver at LHW, even though he never fought at full 175." Even a casula should know better to use a triangle theory like that, let alone someone who's been regular on a boxing message board for over a decade.
     
    theanatolian, May 22, 2020
    theanatolian, May 22, 2020
    #124
  5. bailey

    bailey Loyal Member Full Member

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    Fair enough
     
    bailey, May 22, 2020
    bailey, May 22, 2020
    #125
  6. bailey

    bailey Loyal Member Full Member

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    WTF???
    What are you going on about?
    Mitchell. Quite clearly and obviously.
    Not on any of the judges cards he didnt. So you are trying to site your personal opinion.
    Yet you conveniently dont note that Froch/Johnson, was Froch fighting Johnson when faded and boiled down in weight, compared to Ottke fighting Johnson over 10 YEARS previously.
    Good you have seen both fights because with that in mind, it should tell you a bit more
    Ive agreed that I rate the Kessler win higher even though I think Kessler was a bit faded, but agree, I rate it higher. I think there is some debate with the Froch win, but am happy to go along with it for sake of argument even if I am not sure about that particular win
    Sounds like you are on the bandwago a bit here as even Mitchell doesnt think there was any debate with the decision.

    This content is protected


    It was very relevant based on what you said, and only a fool would say otherwise.
    You were rating Froch as a better win than any of Ottkes and siting what you called controversial decisions Ottke had, but in rating beating Froch, didnt note any controversy with him.
    Completely relevant, and you are only commenting on that because it ruins your hypocrisy
    Havent said otherwise.
    Once again, here is what I wrote -

    That is a fair comment.
    I actually think Pavlik would be able to compete with some of the LHWs like Woods, but it is only a feeling based on having watched the careers of both and nothing more.

    Not sure what input you felt was needed to that?
    Really? As I recall, Hopkins was wanting a rematch with the LHW champ Calzaghe and Hopkins win over Pavlik at LHW was sited as an impressive performance on some accounts I read in looking to build a potential rematch

    Explain how, when you use body of work as your argument elsewhere.

    Lets say I agree and say that I think Kessler and Froch are greater than any of Ottkes

    Ward - Kessler
    Ward - Froch
    Ottke - Mitchell
    Ottke - Mundine
    Ottke - Reid (admit could been seen as controversial)
    Ottke - Brewer
    Ottke - Branco
    Ottke - Brewer
    Ottke - Larsen (admit could been seen as controversial)
    Ottke - Markussen
    Ottke - Johnson
    Ward - Abraham
    Ottke - Tate
    Ottke - Tate (personally think a punch caused the damage)
    Ward - Bika (have seen some posters say they think it could be a draw. Will have to rewatch, but think I had Ward a few points up)

    Knowing who was around at the time, I think Ottke overall has a greater resume.
    Im not disputing there could be controversy with some of Ottkes fights but with the names on his resume, I cant see much overall debate
    I think Froch and Mitchell is debatable but will put Froch above for argumants sake, and overall think Ottke had the greater career.

    22 SMW title wins compared to 7

    Spin it whichever way you choose. It was you who went down the overall wins logic
     
    bailey, May 22, 2020
    bailey, May 22, 2020
    #126
  7. bailey

    bailey Loyal Member Full Member

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    You are jumping in and out of other debates and comments. That isnt what was meant.
    It was pointed how easily Hopkins beat Pavlik and implying he possibly couldnt do well at LHW, but I just pointed that Tarver was beaten as convincingly, and we know he did have a career at LHW.

    You must be a bit stupid to not realise its not as you interpreted when I had already posted directly back to you with -

    I actually think Pavlik would be able to compete with some of the LHWs like Woods, but it is only a feeling based on having watched the careers of both and nothing more.

    Which shows, I never tried to confirm he would be as formidable as Tarver.

    Have another coffee!
     
    bailey, May 22, 2020
    bailey, May 22, 2020
    #127
  8. theanatolian

    theanatolian Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    First, I strongly disagree with the point about Froch. His wins over Pascal(which was a clear win), Bute, Groves, Kessler is FAR superior to Mitchell's.

    I never said Froch beat a better Glen Johnson, you claimed Ottke beat him far more convincingly which is plain wrong.

    Mitchell being gracious in defeat isn't my concern, based on what I've seen in the ring, Otkke/Mitchell was a razor close fight that could've gone either way, far more so than Froch/Pascal.

    I didn't note Froch's contoversial wins because he's a milestone on Ward's resume, not the subject of the debate. I never claimed Froch is greater than Ottke, you just spinned it that way.

    This is a debate about resumes. You liking Pavlik's chances at LHW is %100 subjective, has no base to it and no relevance whatsoever to the topic at the hand.

    And for the third time, I only mentioned the overall body of work for Jones and Hopkins because THEY BEAT SIMILAR LEVEL OF OPPOSITION, WHICH IS NIT THE CASE WITH WARD AND OTTKE. It looks like you're simply too idiotic to comprehend with this, but here's to hope.
     
    theanatolian, May 22, 2020
    theanatolian, May 22, 2020
    #128
  9. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Ward: Froch, Kessler, Dawson, Abraham, Rodriguez, Bika, Miranda, Green

    Ottke: Mitchell, Johnson, Brewer, Tate, Mundine, Branco

    I haven't included the Reid victory because I don't think anyone who saw that fight would say Ottke comes out worthy of credit. I do think Ottke gets a bad rap for decisions though, the Mitchell fight was close but no robbery. I've scored it to either man in the past, but it's mainly Calzaghe fans who class it a robbery. The Johnson fight was very easy to score, one of the best examples of a clear 7-5 victory I've ever seen.

    I think Ward has clearly a better SMW resume than Ottke tbh. Both in terms of quality victories and body of work.
     
    lufcrazy, May 22, 2020
    lufcrazy, May 22, 2020
    #129
  10. bailey

    bailey Loyal Member Full Member

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    How was Frochs win over Pascal, Bute or Groves far superior to Mitchell?
    Who had Bute beaten as rated as Liles who Mitchell had beaten?
    This will be good
    Pascal was not a top SMW and had looked poor in some of those bouts and Groves was a British champion
    None had beaten anyone as good as Mitchell had beaten.
    Tell me how any were better when Froch fought them.
    With Kessler, I rate that win higher but let's not forget Kessler was faded and had not been as active over the last few years.


    You mention idiotic and then go on and bring up what I said about Pavlik again!

    Here it is again. Try to take it in -

    I actually think Pavlik would be able to compete with some of the LHWs like Woods, but it is only a feeling based on having watched the careers of both and nothing more

    Did you read it this time?
    I haven't said Pavlik could compete or that he would even be a factor at LHW
    I have said it is no more than a feeling. Read it again
    You talk about being idiotic. Please make another comment about the above sentence on Pavlik again
     
    bailey, May 23, 2020
    bailey, May 23, 2020
    #130
  11. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

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    Let's not forget Sven ''The Phantom'' Ottke's crazy impressive amateur CV either

    Michael Moorer - WBO LHW champion, WBA, IBF, WBO HW champ

    Henry Maske - Olympic gold medalist, world amateur gold medalist, European gold medalist x 3, long reigning IBF LHW champ

    Ariel Hernandez - 2 x Olympic gold medalist, world amateur gold medalist x 2 & 1 x silver

    Alexander Lebziak - Olympic gold medalist, world amateur gold & silver medalist, European gold medalist x 2, silver x 1, bronze x 2

    Chris Byrd - Olympic silver medalist, WBO & IBF HW champion

    Zsolt Erdei - world amateur gold medalist, Olympic bronze medalist, European gold medalist x 2 & silver x 1, long reigning WBO LHW champ, WBC CW champ

    Torsten May - Olympic gold medalist, world amateur gold medalist

    Vassiliy Jirov - Olympic gold medalist, 2 x world amateur bronze medalist, IBF CW champion

    Juan Carlos Gomez - long reigning WBC CW champ, world junior champion as an amateur

    Antonio Tarver - world amateur gold medalist, Olympic bronze, WBC, IBF, WBA LHW champ

    Angel Espinosa - world amateur gold and silver medalist

    Sinan Samil Sam - world amateur gold and bronze medalist, European bronze and silver medalist, world junior gold medalist, European HW champion

    Andrey Kurniavka - world amateur gold and silver medalist, European bronze medalist

    Ramon Garbey - world amateur gold & bronze medalist

    Torsten Schmitz - world amateur silver medalist 2 x bronze, European silver medalist

    Egerton Marcus - Olympic silver medalist

    Thomas Ulrich - Olympic bronze medalist, world amateur bronze medalist, world junior silver medalist, European LHW champ

    Rostislav Zaulichnyy - world amateur bronze medalist, 2 x European bronze medalist, gold medalist at the world cup

    Chris Johnson - Olympic bronze medalist, world amateur bronze medalist

    Henryk Petrich - Olympic bronze medalist

    Rhoshii Wells - Olympic bronze medalist

    Jean-Paul Mendy - world amateur bronze medalist, 2 x European bronze

    Fought Moorer x 2
    Ariel Hernandez x 4
    Lebziak x 4
    Maske x 2 (think it was even more times than that)
    Tarver x 2
    Torsten May x 2
    Tortsen Schmitz x 2
    Garbey x 2
    Mendy x 2
    Chris Johnson x 3
     
    Serge, May 23, 2020
    Serge, May 23, 2020
    #131
  12. bailey

    bailey Loyal Member Full Member

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    You have to look at where they were when beaten as well.
    I rate Wards wins over Kessler and Froch highly even though I feel both were a bit faded.
    Abraham though was coming off 2 S6 losses at the time and saying he was still too small for SMW. He was not on a good run. Abraham had looked decent at MW but not great at SMW when being pushed by P Smith.
    Rodriguez, Green and Miranda were not factors at SMW and not as good a wins as Ottke had over fighters like Markussen for example. I could put several above
    If you are going to note them for Ward, you could note Larsen, Starie and Markussen for Ottke for example.
    Bika at the time had been very inactive and I think from memory had only had about a round of action in a year.

    You also haven't mentioned Ottke had 2 wins over Brewer and Tate respectively.

    I rate Wards win over Kessler above all of them. I think the Froch win can be debated, but even if I said the Kessler and Froch win, overall Ottke beat far more top rated SMWs and I could easily argue that if put in order that the next easily 5 wins would go to Ottke easily.
    His body of work and wins overall is far greater
     
    bailey, May 23, 2020
    bailey, May 23, 2020
    #132
  13. theanatolian

    theanatolian Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Spinning again? I did not say Bute, Pascal and Groves are superior SMWs to Mitchell, you claimed Mitchell can be debated to be a better win than Froch, I said Froch's wins over Bute, Pascal, Groves and faded Kessler are superior to Mitchell's, as in they're superior wins to Mitchell's wins as a whole who's only notable win at the weight was Liles(who I might also add was just as faded as the Kessler that Froch beat), meaning that Froch is a superior SMW to Mitchell, thus he's a better win for Ward than Mitchell is for Ottke. Get it now? Or does it need to be explained the way It should be explained to a kindergarten student?

    I'm only saying Pavlik is irrelevant because he's irrelevant to discussion. As long as you continue to mention him, I'm gonna continue to mention that he's irrelevant.
     
    theanatolian, May 23, 2020
    theanatolian, May 23, 2020
    #133
  14. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Abraham had essentially knocked out Dirrel and a loss to Froch is hardly a bad thing.

    Bika had essentially knocked out Mendy.

    Rodriguez had just knocked out Grachez.

    Green was on a good run and is about the level of some of the names you mentioned.

    Only Miranda could be considered a soft win, but that wasn't too far removed from the huge rematch with Abraham which was considered a big fight.

    I'd say the wins over Kessler, Froch, Dawson and Abraham are better than any wins by Ottke.
     
    lufcrazy, May 23, 2020
    lufcrazy, May 23, 2020
    #134
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