Who do you think was the better fighter James Toney or Chavez Sr

Chavez and it's not really that close imo.

 

Chavez.

 

'Better' I would define as more effective and consistent in enforcing their style and will over a number of different opponents, styles and even weights.

With that criteria, Chavez is my choice.

 

"Old head on younger shoulders" - well said. That's the best way to articulate the experience both of these guys had. I really like that saying.

 

Toney had higher peaks IMO, but also much lower lows. And he a lot more lows too. Chavez just stacked up wins vs world class opposition, and obviously has the ridiculous 90 fight undefeated streak. Chavez doesn't have those embarrassing fights vs Griffin, Thadzi, Jones, Tiberi etc. Although Julio also doesn't have wins as good as James' over Nunn, Jirov or McCallum. But what he does have is, about 25 mid-level guys, with guys like Ramirez, Rosario and Randall finishing off his list quite nicely. Those embarrassing fights tend to bring James down a bit, and normally I don't care for consistency, but Chavez's a bit different. It's not that he was consistent that impresses me, it's that he just racked up title fights, and therefore world level opponents and wins. That depth puts him ahead of Toney, who lets himself down a bit under scrutiny IMO.

I have Chavez top 50; Toney, top 80. For the reasons and rationale above.

H2H is an entirely different matter, though. I tend to think the best version of Toney was a better fighter than the best version of Chavez.

 

Toney, by far.

Chavez fought WAY too many cans. NOBODY needs to fight 80+ cans. Look at Toney's 87 compared to JCC's...

Toney won multiple belts in multiple divisions, too.

MW
SMW
LHW
CW
HW

That's a career Middle doing all of that - and he never got stopped in 30 years, either!

 

Great analysis as always, George.

The only thing I disagree with (although it's somewhat a personal criteria) is your comment about consistency not being impressive. I see consistency as a sign of greatness - the ability to deliver time after time regardless of the opposition.

Chavez of course was a metronome of consistency up until the Randall fight. Toney wasn't remotely as diligent in his training habits and that explained his inconsistency. I'd say he fought up and down to the level of his opposition but sometimes it was just bad preparation that meant he wasn't there whoever he was fighting.

Chavez is unquestionably (imo) greater all-time and a large part of that is his consistently high level of performance regardless of the opposition.

 

I am not sure what you mean with better. They were better at doing different things. The one was a counter puncher, the other a pressur fighter. Toney was probably the more talented of the two

 

Chavez.

People can argue that Toney was more talented (and there may be something to that) but the simple truth of the matter is that Chavez put in the work, had the consistency, and as a result has the better resume.

 

Another vote for Chavez. People seem to forget how unstoppable he was early in his career.

 

You don’t consider Edwin Rosario...Hector Camacho...and Meldrick Taylor better wins ?

 

Than Nunn, Jirov and McCallum? No. I do think that Camacho and Taylor are better wins than Randall, but I liked the 'R' alteration I had going on.

 

This is very important. Chavez is less likely to be stylistically challenged. He fights well against basically any and all styles.

 

More skilled, Toney.
More consistent, Chavez.

 

I agree that consistency adds to legacy. When the stakes are high, I would pick the guy who I can always depend on.