Who do you think was the better fighter James Toney or Chavez Sr

No . he got exposed against whitaker badly. (Yes yes.. It was not prime chavez blahblah).
It would be funny to see how mad would be the chavez fans watching how easily mayweather jr would have beaten him

 

He had several wins better than Jirov.

 

Chavez. Consistency is a big part of greatness.

If we're solely looking at best versions... Hard to say, really. But I was probably more impressed by how JCC took apart Camacho than anything I've seen from Toney.

 

Chavez was better at his peak, too. Toney was better at weight jumping. That’s it. That’s the only edge he holds. To be fair, it’s an edge he holds over pretty much everybody from the last 50 years. If you rate that higher on your criteria than anything else then go with Toney. Be consistent and be prepared to make him your choice for the best pound for pound fighter of the last half century, though.

 

Toney, one of 3 middleweights to win the heavyweight title

 

Not quite as impressive as his win over Vassiliy Jirov, though.

Jirov was awesome. Remember when he lost to James Toney in an exciting fight? What a career.

 

Feel free to name the hundreds of middleweights that would beat him.

 

I’ll just copy and paste this for you:

“Chavez was better at his peak, too. Toney was better at weight jumping. That’s it. That’s the only edge he holds. To be fair, it’s an edge he holds over pretty much everybody from the last 50 years. If you rate that higher on your criteria than anything else then go with Toney. Be consistent and be prepared to make him your choice for the best pound for pound fighter of the last half century, though.”

 

And I'll just copy and paste this for you:

"Feel free to name the hundreds of middleweights that would beat him."

And this, too:

"I have Chavez top 50; Toney, top 80"

 

So you rate Toney both higher at his best weight/peak performance and (I presume) you rate him significantly higher in a weight jumping/pound for pound sense, correct?

 

That is correct, yes. Although that first one is really close.

 

So why on Earth do you rate Chavez higher overall?

 

I'll just copy and paste you this:

"Toney had higher peaks IMO, but also much lower lows. And he a lot more lows too. Chavez just stacked up wins vs world class opposition, and obviously has the ridiculous 90 fight undefeated streak. Chavez doesn't have those embarrassing fights vs Griffin, Thadzi, Jones, Tiberi etc. Although Julio also doesn't have wins as good as James' over Nunn, Jirov or McCallum. But what he does have is, about 25 mid-level guys, with guys like Ramirez, Rosario and Randall finishing off his list quite nicely. Those embarrassing fights tend to bring James down a bit, and normally I don't care for consistency, but Chavez's a bit different. It's not that he was consistent that impresses me, it's that he just racked up title fights, and therefore world level opponents and wins. That depth puts him ahead of Toney, who lets himself down a bit under scrutiny IMO.

I have Chavez top 50; Toney, top 80. For the reasons and rationale above.

H2H is an entirely different matter, though. I tend to think the best version of Toney was a better fighter than the best version of Chavez."

 

The whole “better vs greater” thing, I gotcha.

For me that only applies when you can’t sufficiently compare the fighters due to lack of film. To each his own, though.

 

How was Toney a career middleweight? (LOL) Toney was 200 pounds when he was a high school football player.

He fought for 29 years. He was a middleweight for 4 of those 29 years. The first four ... I might add ... and he struggled to make middleweight the ENTIRE time. If anything, four years was too long at middleweight.

He couldn't make the middleweight limit when he was 24.

Toney was a very good fighter. But, IMO, people have always blown his accomplishments WAY out of proportion. WAY way way out of proportion.

Toney was a guy who had two magical years a dozen years apart -- 1991 & 2003 - where he seemed to get all the breaks. Because he could've easily had four losses in 1991, but the judges (against Sosa, Johnson and McCallum) and a late KO when he was WAY behind on the cards against Nunn saved him.

And Fans tend to remember him for those two years. Even though the later run was quickly followed by TWO FAILED PED tests (which explains his late career resurgence).

Truthfully, other than 91 and 03, the other 27 years of Toney's career, he wasn't any better than guys like Buddy McGirt, which is no insult. Toney was a very good fighter. He definitely knew how to box.

But I watched him the whole time in real time. And I just never felt like I was watching anyone special. He was definitely a solid veteran. Knew all the moves. But the only times I was ever "wowed" by any of his fights were the two in 2003. And, based on his failed PED tests later, I've kind of look at those differently now, too.