Who does Wlad beat against these old time Heavyweights?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Boom_Boom, Aug 16, 2009.


  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,175
    48,440
    Mar 21, 2007
    I think the reason we disagree on this is we disagree on a number of things concerning the two fighters. Firstly, I don't think that Wlad brings the type of pressure that brings counter-danger, Wlad being a sort of counter-puncher himself, using pressure and distance to create counter-opportunities. He's actually got pretty good at making opponents lead with his control over distance and a sense that he is winning rounds with a sometimes pawing jab. He tends to come into range and then react to how his opponent deals with this pressure, to my eyes.

    Secondly, Wlad's footwork as "sloppy" - yes, but effective. He's kind off like Lewis in this. This is a really boring round of boxing, but you could check it for examples if you felt like it. Wlad consistently "runs away" from Chagaev with less than graceful footwork and - maybe of interest to you? - leaning away from a shorter opponent:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7lcu3BvGso&feature=related


    Agree on the uppercut, but Wlad is so good at smothering his man, isn't he? I think that would (counter-intuitively) be a rather interesting part of the contest.

    I do think that Holmes would win...but I also think the fight would end up being fought at Wlad's pace and that it would therefore be a close fight.






    I think yes he would be, but he would have to be lucky, and probably he would have to be able to initiate the clinch. But Liston made a lot of impressive adjustments during fights with top-line competition, I wouldn't be surprised to see something like this happen. And it might be the sort of thing that only needs to happen once.



    Here's video of a prime Sonny utilising the jab:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO6gqaQ5uC4

    I think what's impressive is that every jab is followed by something. You are correct to say that Liston is slow to re-tract. But this is the price you pay for a monster reach and a barn-door finish. Yes, Liston is one of only three men that I consider flat out better than Wlad as a jabber (though what they do well is so different it's hard to be sure).

    In this video, Liston always shows something after the jab, a right hand, evasive manauveres, or a move in...the last is what I see as the crucial point. Wlad could be disorganised going backwards behind his jab, Sonny was organised and hit hard going forwards behind his.
     
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,175
    48,440
    Mar 21, 2007
    As an aside CT, would you see Williams as better than any of the fighters Wlad has faced? Or not? If he had fought Williams in his prime would that have been considered Wlad's #1 scalp?

    Anyone else should feel free to weigh in on this.
     
  3. Kaki

    Kaki Guest

    lotta votes for louis. wlad doesn't beat louis. all louis has to do is get past the jab (which he certicanly can) and kayo wladdy with a highlight reel combination at close range or just time an overhand right when wlad scurries backwards in a straight line like he always does.
     
  4. JuanMa

    JuanMa business as usual Full Member

    3,448
    0
    Jun 26, 2009
    Possibly Marciano thats about it.
     
  5. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

    18,216
    14,038
    Jun 30, 2005
    :think

    He's fast and hard-hitting enough to be a scary fight for Wlad specifically. Byrd was arguably better than Williams, but he posed Wlad no threat because of his style.
     
  6. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

    18,216
    14,038
    Jun 30, 2005
    I see pressuring Ali or Holmes with the jab--a la Norton--as his best option. Waiting for them to lead off and countering would be, I think, difficult because both were effective at moving and jabbing at the same time. It would be hard for him to get set to punch unless he's bringing forward momentum against them.

    But does he show the same mobility against other, better movers?




    True...Holmes was no slouch himself strength-wise. I wonder if he could keep Wlad from clamping him? :think




    A very good observation.
     
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,175
    48,440
    Mar 21, 2007
    :lol:
     
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,175
    48,440
    Mar 21, 2007
    True, especially Ali is exceptionally good at hitting with power in a very brief "anchored" second then getting back on the bike. Holmes too though. Wlad does create pressire though, simply by means of size, reach and positioning and his positioning is always good. He creates difficulies with that "pawing" jab, but also makes guys worry that they are losing to that punch...and often they are.

    I do see Holmes and Ali both off-setting this with speed though, and it's unlikely they would find themselves in that steel "i'm behind" trap.



    I think he's unorganised but still well balanced. I wouldn't expect him to keep it up indefinitely, but he'd be able to buy time against any opponent. It's persistance that would get to him I think. Maybe Holmes would look to crowd him and deploy the uppercut when Wlad went to clinch, that would work well for him, though it would take a toll upon his legs if he couldn't force a stoppage.






    I wouldn't have thought so; then again, he's probably strong and well balanced enough to grab himself enough room for a sneak punch which might be even better.






    Cheers.
     
  9. fidds

    fidds Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,672
    106
    Mar 15, 2006

    because he is a tool :patsch
     
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,175
    48,440
    Mar 21, 2007
    Disturbingly there are a couple of guys that ticked all the boxes...
     
  11. Schmapps

    Schmapps Member Full Member

    460
    0
    Mar 3, 2008

    :lol: I happen to like both Klitschko bros. I don't think swearing at me is really necessary, or suggesting I think Wlad is a bum because I don't think he'd beat The consensus #1 or #2 heavyweight of all time..

    I don't think he's gonna get "jab, hooks, and straight rights" to the head for 12 rounds is all. I think his rhythm will present problems for Wlad in terms of landing clean punches, and Ali is indeed better at tying up and frustrating opponents on the inside, again, just my opinion. And since when is Klit any good on the inside or at clinching?
     
  12. K-Man

    K-Man Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,282
    0
    Apr 24, 2009
    People always forget that their heroes of the past were Byrd sized "heavies" fighting other Byrd sized heavies minus the speed, technique, ring intelligence and plan of Byrd. Sonny Liston would be utterly dwarfed by Wlad in size, reach, step length, and mobility, making it almost impossible to set up anything with his jab. Simply because he cannot throw his jab from the place but has to jump into it.

    I voted for Ali beats him (on ring intelligence, smartness, timing, whatever), prime Tyson beats him (speed and power alone), Lewis beats him (the original Wlad with more power and better smartness, good improvising, better in everything but speed), and Holmes is a 50:50. Many fighters not in that list could or would probably beat him, prime Foreman, etc. But this is a specific list, with lots of undersized underpowered old glory fighters who wouldn't make up for the size deficiency with Tyson type power.

    The rest of the undersized simply doesn't get past the jab and the clinch, and WILL get smashed from the 1-2s. Who had such a strong left hook and 1-2 in the 1930s, or 1950s ? Size blabla Carnera bla. Wlad is a powerhouse with fast punches, good gameplan, safety first attitude who first worries about nullifying his opponents offense, tieing them up, smothering them, getting them off their game with his constant jabbing, and THEN later sets up the 1-2s to batter opponents. Someone who doesn't have Tysons crouching style with a heck of one punch KO power, Lewis ring intelligence, size and overall greater ability, or Alis "special something", has no chance other than the dreaded lucky punch. Not in a 12 round fight with todays safety Wlad who never goes all in anymore.

    I don't doubt that a Louis would beat a lot of todays contenders. However, he does not beat Wlad, and he does not beat a prime Vitali. He doesn't beat a prime Lewis, he doesn't beat a prime Tyson, not a prime Holyfield, he doesn't beat Ali, he doesn't even beat a Corrie Sanders. Not a prime Brewster who had underrated finishing skills if that one is healthy. He was a good 1930s fighter ahead of his time, but he was a 200lb 6'2" cruiser without demon speed or terrific skills. He wasn't Roy Jones. A national hero, but not someone who would trouble the superstars of the 70s to today.
     
  13. RightCross

    RightCross Grandmaster of Boxing Full Member

    10,533
    3
    Aug 3, 2004
    As I always post when Wlad is long done with his career he will get much more respect than he does at the moment on ESB.

    The fact is a lot of these guys have never dealt with anyone nears wlads size and strength and most importantly his athleticism. Wlad has recently come on as a great heavyweight where his confidence and technique have been much improved over the pasts questionable defense.

    There are a few guys here that would beat Wlad on this list however. Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson and Marciano. Lennox has the size, strength and punch to deal with a large Wlad, but this figth isnt 100%, if rahman can KO lewis wlad can surely do it as well. Tyson would be too much as would marciano inside.

    A prime Ali who dances and moves would have a lot of trouble with wlad and IMO lose a decision. Ali is no tyson and there are a lot of questionable fights on his record. Ali was often boring and conservative. Wlad would win all those rounds ali took off. To the guy who posted that Wlad had a lesser chin than norton, well norton didnt have near the athleticism as wlad.

    Holmes may give him trouble due to his hand speed, but Holmes was a not a mover and usually only snapped the jab. This fight would come down to who had range and could Larry take wlads right the whole fight.
     
  14. Guru_Too_You

    Guru_Too_You ESB OG circa '99 Full Member

    3,217
    0
    Jul 24, 2004
    Perfect.
     
  15. Rangersfan1982

    Rangersfan1982 Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,832
    1
    May 28, 2009
    Exactly what I was thinking.