Who else goes 5-1-0 over Liston, Frazier & Foreman

I think so, too. Not sure about Holy against prime Foreman, though. I think he could start really well, but Foreman just hit SO hard, and his hand speed back in the day wasn't as much of a joke as some people here might think it was.

Holy could take the past-it Liston of the Ali fights, but I see him getting really hurt against Patterson Liston. Holy was too much of a warrior not to try trading some with Foreman and prime Liston, and as much as I love him, I don't think he'd bear up well under said trades.

 

Liston was past his prime and the only good wins he had in his careers were against 180 pound Floyd Patterson and unskilled Cleveland Williams. So Ali beating him proved what? Tons of other heavyweights would of beat Liston. Joe Frazier was never the same after Foreman beat him. Numerous heavyweights could beat the Frazier that Foreman destroyed and Ali got lucky against Foreman. It happens all the time. Buster Douglas destroyed Mike Tyson. Did that mean Douglas could do it again or Douglas was better? Lennox Lewis lost to both Hasim Rahman and Oliver McCall. Did that mean they were better or could do it again?

 

Yes, if he's in his prime for all of them. But when he was 32-33 he had a bad patch, losing to Moorer and Bowe and just edging Mercer, so if he had to face Forman and Frazier x 2 during those years it does not look good for him.

 

Over a 11 year period the best chance to do this should be a 5-0 over Liston and three wins against Frazier. Then one loss to Foreman.

Lewis comes to mind. Maybe a switch via one Frazier loss and a win for the 2001 version of Lewis against 74 Foreman too.

Larry Holmes? No, the math doesn´t fit. I´ll hear some cry, but maybe Vitali could pull off the Lewis route too.

11 years is a hell of a stretch. Going 5-1-0 and beating Foreman within that frame is unique.
I believe If you let fighters fight these 6 fights just in their prime, some more boxers come up.

 

Super pedantic.
38yo, 1979 Ali is not Ali.
5 years after Foreman, 4 after Joe lll.

 

I certainly wouldn't favor anyone but this scenario is the strongest claim for me, comfortably.


Early Lewis vs a poorly trained overconfident Liston would see Lewis in with a chance. The second was a fix for mine so that'd be easy.

FOTC Frazier would see the Holyfield version of Lewis and I'd take his size and ability to use it, uppercut and booming power over the ebst Frazier.

Foreman and Frazier would find a Lewis from end of career time. He still had plenty in the tank when trained and you wouldn't count him out tho Foreman would be favored. He'd have a great chance of taking Frazier x 2 at that respective point of their careers.

Far from impossible. For me it hinges on him being able to win one of two against a poorly prepared Liston when he was green and a peak Foreman when Lewis was near the end. Liston had some sting for a few rounds so a pre Steward version of Lewis could well get rolled and he'd be an underdog against Foreman at those career stages too. At their best it's close to pick'em for me and Lewis is a bit aged.

Holmes is out as if you took him even from 77 before he hit the big time and beat Shavers 11 years and change he sits right around Tyson times after losing to Spinks two years previous. He ain't beating Foreman and post FOTC Frazier.

We could take Louis basically immediately post Schmeling in 36. He might beat an unfocused Liston at that stage. Tough fight. Perhaps we'd need Louis from 38. Hard to say. He'd run into FOTC Frazier pre war and Louis was still firing at that point so he'd be a good chance. Foreman and latter model Frazier see him well and truly post war and it just ain't happening for him. Foreman would belt him at that point and I'd favor Frazier as well. Louis had lost a lot by the time he was fighting Walcott and Charles.

So Lewis is the best bet by far but still with reservations and against the odds.

 

Norton Holmes beat the Ali Liston handily. Holds the title until he has to take a break (for some conjured reason) 67 to 70.

Knocks the crap out of Quarry, decisions to Bonavena. Loses to FOTC Frazier (though guys like Larry and Louis are the ones I feel would have the best chance against that Frazier).

Split decisions Frazier II in a controversial fight (Larry at this point is slipping hard).

If we're going chronologically, Foreman would have blasted him out ten years after he won the title. However, I just can't see any version of George getting anywhere with prime Holmes. The Holmes of Shavers II would have been knocked down but roared back for a 10th or 11th round stoppage imo.

Manila Frazier would have decisioned the 40 year old Holmes.

If Holmes WASN'T forced to take the kind of 3 year layoff Ali did, then he would have dominated the 60s, including the 60s versions of Frazier, Ellis, et al imo.

 

Lennox Lewis.

 

No way in hell Holmes "dominates" a late 68-69 Frazier. Inferior fighters gave Holmes hell.

I doubt he even wins tbh.

 

It's a tough call for me. But to me the guy who ALWAYS beats Ali and Holmes (any version) is the FOTC Frazier. Not as sure about the late sixties, to me Joe peaked and became h2h the best heavyweight in history 1970-1971.

I do take back the dominates. But I think he would have decisioned the 60s Joe.

All respect, and I have a REAL hard time strongly arguing my opinion, because I so sympathize with your assertion. Frazier was amazing.

 

I haven't read the thread in its entirety, but assuming that said fighter to repeat Ali's record follows the same 11 year period, with the same wear and tear in between fights with Liston, Frazier and Foreman - are we accounting that
whichever fighter we pick to replicate also has to lose the same amount of ring time that Ali did and go through the same/similar situation?

 

This is a very biased post.
One glaringly obvious tip-off is not knowing or significantly distorting size on purpose.
Patterson was 194 & a 1/2 in the second fight with Liston. He was close to that for the first, check the numbers.
Anytime the sad habit of manipulating or being careless about the facts to prove a point is deployed, it hurts credibility.

Liston was champion & had only one loss in his career by the time he faced Ali. Not so many HWs could have beat him at all; Ali made him look slower than he was.
Frazier was significantly declined, but it started after FOTC. And he was still a great fighter against Ali given his motivation & stylistic advantages.

Your points about Douglas & Lewis are perfectly valid.

Still, very very few boxers could have compiled Ali's record against Liston Foreman & Ali.

 

Okay, under the same exact circumstances and timelines, not sure that I would confidently volunteer anybody.

Maybe Louis, but even so, I wouldn't bet the mortgage on it.