Who fought better versions of Langford, Jeannette and Mcvey? Johnson or WIlls?

Here is this...

Wills fought Jeannette, Langford, and Mcvey in 1913-1914. Had Johnson done that in his title reign, he would be praised beyond belief. Instead posters here are downgrading those versions and attempting to prop up the 1904-1906 versions of Langford, Mcvea, Jeanette who were either 156lb, 19 years old, or 10-10.

 

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This fight took place in 1913, when johnson was ducking both these men. Wills, still a green fighter, had no problem taking on both these world class fighters in 1913-1914.


Sam Langford looks incredible here. An 18 fight, novice version of Wills fought both these men to a draw. 2 newspapers had Wills winning the langford fight.

How is Wills not getting more credit here?

 

Actually I forgot he fought MCVey and JJ in 13/14. Was focusing on his much later bouts w them. I’m still disagreeing on Langford. Either way I’m a huge believer Dempsey’s team blatantly ducked Wills and it is a huge asterisk on his record.

 

Geez will you guys get off Wills' nuts for a second and give Grebb a break. You're insinuating Grebb ducked Wills? FFS Wills outweighed Grebb by at least 40 pounds...and more...most of his career. Would Grebb have fought him? Probably, even with one eye but that's because he was basically crazed about fighting everyone.

 

Fought but not beat!

 

Langford had over 50 fights when he faced Johnson which is more than Jack had under his belt.
McVey was ranked in the forefront of contenders for Jeffries title when Johnson ko'd him.There was a guarantee of$20,000 on the table for Jeffries to defend against him. Point being Wills could not beat the 1913 version of Jeannette and didn't manage the trick until Jeannette was nearly 40, 6 years later.

 

Wills never beat Langford until December 1915,he never beat McVey until September 1915 ,he never beat Jeannette until October 1919!
FACT1.Neither Johnson or Langford weighed in the weights were estimated as156/159 Johnson185lbs.If we take Langford at the lower weight and factor in that according to the foremost expert on him Clay Moyle that Langford's best weight was 175lbs he was19pounds below his optimum weight. Johnson stated he was at his very best condition wise for the Jeffries fight.He scaled 205lbs for that, so he was 20pounds below his best weight.Langford had also had more fights than Johnson 56 to 48.Plus the fight was in his adopted home town.

FACT2..
Johnson signed to fight Jeannette twice in NY,for $30,00, the defences to be promoted by the McMahon Brothers the NYAC vetoed both attempts at putting on the championship defence and threatened any promoter who did so with withdrawal of his licence.
Fact3.
Johnson signed to fight both Sam McVey & Sam Langford in Australia for Hugh McIntosh for $55,000+ 4 roundtrip tickets and a% of the film rights .When Johnson fled the US, McIntosh withdrew the offer.
All this is easily verified and public statements were made by both the NY Commissioner the McMahon Brothers and McIntosh explaining why the fights would not be going ahead .I've posted them here several times.
The complete story of these aborted title defences of Johnson's can be found in Adam Pollack's excellent 2nd volume of Johnson." The Reign".I would seriously advise anyone who wishes to hold forth on the subject to read both volumes before getting up on his soap box and making an ass of himself! In doing so he would avoid being mistaken for our hater in chief on this subject Mendoza and thereby retain his credibility.
FACT 4.Langford was blind in one eye after his 1917 fight with Fulton and had less than complete vision in the other.
FACT5.Langford was seldom in top condition once he was past 31,infact he was described as being hog fat for some of his battles with the other three black greats.
Facts 4 & 5 can be verified by anyone taking the time to read Clay Moyle's brilliant biography of Langford.
FACT 6.Langford's real DOB is a subject of conjecture.Clay Moyle and I had some correspondence on it and he arrived at his best guess.
Moral of this post is it is best not to use words like ducking when you don't know the facts or WTF you are talking about because you are too concerned in venting your dislike of certain fighters to be bothered by checking the facts. This is unusual for you as on the 1950's you invariably do your homework,on this new crusade you are in danger of metamorphasizing into Mendoza!
That my friend, would be a sad drop off in quality for such a good poster as yourself!

 

No, that's exactly what we aren't supposed to keep in mind. You're specifically asking who fought the better versions. You literally reiterated that point in a different post

 

How many excuses is that? I lost count...

Fact, Johnson signed to fight Langford and PULLED out of the match as champion. This is a clean duck and a shameful act by Johnson. If you sign a deal and there is a purse, you honor it. You're done right here, but I'll go one.

Fact, Joe Woodman, Langford's manager tried to make the match many times. Johnson always had an excuse, or simply moved the purse demands to the point where the fight could not be made.

Fact, As champion Johnson could have fought in many nations.

Fact, If Johnson signed as you claimed ( I'd like to see the contracts ) why wait until he fled?

Fact, the French wanted the strip Johnson's title for not meeting Langford, McVey or Jeannette.

Fact, Johnson never gave a dubious draw to Jim Battling Johnson in France.

Opinion, Clay who researched Langford things he was just 20 years old when he met Johnson with an estimated weight of 156 pounds. A quick sweat above Jr Middle. Johnson was fighting for many more years and had an estimated 30 pounds on Sam. Johnson is on quote by the French press than Langford floored him. Wether that happened or not is unknown, he's a liar, so its hard to say.


Opinion, Langford past 31 would be in shape to fight Johnson.

Quote by Joe Jeannette. When Johnson because champion he forgot his old friends and drew the color line against his own people! I tend to doubt Joe says this is any of those offers were real that you mentioned. He was there, you were not!

Now, are you going to comment if Wills fought better versions of Langford, McVey, and Jeannette? That is the thread. Go ahead and be honest and tell us what you think.

 

The only time I used the word ducking is in reference to Dempsey ducking Wills and Greb...which I think is completely fair

 

Off tangent, Dempsey wanted no part of an older Sam Langford, and avoided decline Jeannette as a sub in for an opponent.

Which version of Langford beat better fighters? The one pre Jack Johnson or the one when Harry Wills was active. I think that's an easy pick.

 

McVea was an 8-2 teenager when Johnson beat him. Can’t see how he was better than the top ranked McVea who Wills beat in 1915 with far more experience under his belt at only 31 years old, and having been denied a rightful shot at Johnson’s crown for years

Wills was in his 17th pro fight when he fought the top ranked, highly experienced Jeanette to a draw. The New Orleans item had wills winning. This should be held in a positive manner regarding wills career, not a criticism. Could you imagine if Dempsey fought Jeanette on even terms in only his 17th pro fight? His supporters would be singing praises

 

Nope Johnson signed to fight Langford for a pittance BEFORE he became champion after he became champion he wanted more money which was not forthcoming.Ive

I've asked you many, many ,many times to produce one verified offer of $30,000 ,[Johnson's asking price for title defence] that he turned down?
YOU HAVE NEVER DONE SO AND YOU WONT NOW!
Clay does not know when Langford was born I know this because I've talked with him about it and I see him on FB. I have the reports of the Johnson v Langford fight. Langford was down twice for two long 9 counts and had his nose broken into the bargain Johnson was not floored in that fight.
FACT.Here is a contemporary report of the fight.
1906-04-27 The Boston Journal (Boston, MA) (page 9)
LANGFORD LOSES IN GAME FIGHT
--------
Sam Langford was beaten badly by Jack Johnson at Chelsea last night, but earned the cheers of his admirers and many more besides by a superb exhibition of grit and courage that makes other local exhibitions of gameness in the ring fade almost into insignificance.

He was there all through the fifteen rounds, and saved a lot of money for his friends who had bet that he would last ten rounds, twelve rounds or stay the limit. But it is a question if he were wire, for the beating he took is enough to seriously impair his strength and health.

Most of the punishment was on the head, and so may not have the injurious effect that a severe drubbing on the body would have. Sam didn't have a chance on earth to win, for he was outweighed about thirty-five pounds, and Johnson was too clever, too fast, too heavy, too strong and too powerful in punching for him.

Sam went down three times. On the first occasion it looked as if he slipped or stumbled to his knees, as the accompanying punch was not heavy. He was knocked down with a powerful left hook in the middle of the sixth round and lay on his face. He was down just nine seconds, according to Timekeeper Murphy, a thoroughly honest man, and the referee, Maffit Flaherty, who says he was on his feet at the call of nine, and according to several watches in the hands of men around the ring.

Down Again.

Later on in the same round he was down again for nine seconds. On the first knockdown itlooked as if he couldn't continue. But he arose within the specified ten seconds. The second time he went to the floor from a right hand smash on the jaw. He wasn't in such a bad way and arose all right. Johnson tried his best to give him his quietus, but was exhausted and weak from punching and couldn't land the knockout.

It was a one-sided fight. It was all Johnson all the way. Sam did well on his left stabs and showed at times an inclination to shoot the right over for Jack's jaw. But he was outclassed too much naturally to make it any kind of an even fight."

TWO POSSIBLY THREE KNOCKDOWNS OF LANGFORD NO KNOCKDOWN OF JOHNSON
Can we now have an end to your "interpretations "of this fight?

FACT .Johnson's price for a title defence was $30,000 he declared this in national newpapers and he always added nobody barred! And he never wavered from it! I've seen the reproduced papers in Pollack's books.
FACT. The French did strip Johnson of his title and awarded it to Langford the next day when he beat Jeannette.
FACT. A month later they stripped Langford and re-awarded it to Johnson!
FACT.You have not read Johnson's 2 biographies by Pollack and consequently have no idea what is in them,what evidence and information they contain.I have, therefore I am, speaking from knowledge and you from ignorance,
your usual position!
Johnson faced and beat better versions of Jeannette than Wills did .imo
Johnson ko'd a 20 years old McVey who was a prominent contender for Jeffries title so prominent that a promoter offered Jeffries a $20,00 guarantee to defend against the 205lbs McVey.
Wills faced better versions of Langford than Johnson did, and he also lost to well past prime versions of Langford too!

FACT. nobody knows precisely how many fights McVey had before he faced Johnson.

FACT. you once stated the Johnson v Battling Johnson fight was stopped after 10rds to save Johnson's title.
FACT. You once stated the French Federation withdrew recognition of Johnson as champion because of his poor fight against Battling Jim.
FACT. Both statements are incorrect!.
FACT. Jeannette hated Johnson and took every opportunity to disparage him loudly picking against him when he fought Jeffries as did Langford! Johnson owed Jeannette NOTHING.
FACT. The offers of title defences and their acceptance by Johnson are matters of public record and can be found in contemporary newspapers of the period and reproduced in Pollack's extensively researched books.
FACT .You are a phobic Jack Johnson hater and your presence on any thread that mentions even his name is like a toxic virus.

 

This is you.
"This fight took place in 1913, when johnson was ducking both these men"
And its proven bull****! As my post emphatically shows.
You are being led by the nose by our resident Johnson hater who made this thread expressly to further disparage Johnson who has particularly got up his nose recently because of his being pardoned.

 

I disagree with a decent portion of this, and that isn't typical of me when reading your posts. I'll just stick with the main thing that jumped out at me. I don't think there is anyway you could say Wills beat the better version of Sam. When Johnson fought him, he was already being touted as a challenger to Jeffries. He had more fights that his record indicates now, and he was a leading contender. Johnson beat him multiple time to remove any doubt who the best challenger to Jeffries was. When Wills finally did beat Sam, he was past his best, and clearly not close to the physical prime version Johnson beat. Mentally he was likely better by Wills, but his body certainly wasn't.

I also don't like the viewpoint that Sam was somehow better against Johnson with more weight and would've done better. When Langford fought Johnson he had more fights than Johnson, so he certainly wasn't some shrinking violet by that point. He gained more weight because HW was where all the fights were, and the money was, doesn't mean that was his best weight. It's like claiming James Toney best weight was at HW. That couldn't be further from the truth. His record gets better same as his career progressed, but again, that isn't to say he was better with more weight. Shoot, his best win was likely before he even met Johnson when he beat Gans. Plus, when they did meet, Johnson was also lighter than what he would claim was his best weight. So if same gained 30, so would've Jack, and there fight was even close the first time. It was a one sided beat down. But I'm supposed to believe Sam gaining more weight, and Johnson gaining more weight makes it a close fight? I just have never bought into that line of thinking I guess.