Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

Just to add to this. When Johnson lost to one of the worst HW champs ever it was against 240lb HW over a grueling 45 round contest in the beating sun. Not to mention Johnson was 37 years old. In the 1900's 37 year old was ancient in boxing terms. Not even with some bad arithmetic and exaggerated guesswork was Liston 37 years old by the time of the first Ali fight.

 

How deluded must one be to exhort the merits of a staged fight against a hophead middleweight and a has-been amateur heavyweight five years removed from the sport to bolster someone's resume. Is the argument for Johnson's supremacy that desperate? If it is, it is truly embarrassing for those fomenting it.

Carry on, though. These fictions entertain me to no end.

 

What about the pre 1950's HW questions? Are you standards considering the times a little extreme, or was ducking during those days because of racial lines and various other reasons more excusable, and only under the scrutiny of hindsight are these fighters records that much lesser than more modern HWs (As well as the opinions of the viewers of that time). Phew, that's quite the run on sentence.

My stance would be Luf's logic. That Johnson's whole record is better than the sum of its part. You can **** and discredit each opponent but Johnson beat the best fighters of his day. Of course he didn't beat all of them at their most timely peaks as fighters, but that's not entirely Johnson's fault as the politics probably wouldn't permit. Would whites really be interesting in watching two black HWs compete for the championship? Maybe they would and maybe it would be permitted. It wouldn't sell nearly as well as the white hope theme. Maybe I'm just buying into apologetic bull**** for Johnson. I don't think I am.

 

Records are exactly and definitively the sum of their parts. The rest of it is misty-eyed fiction.

 

Johnson probably had the better resume.
For a start, Johnson beat Sam Langford, who is rated really highly.

 

I could tear down Liston's record name by name if you wish but I have a little more respect for such fighters. There's nothing fictitious about the names and opponents that Johnson defeated. You can continuously undermine and diminish each circumstance as you desire but your act is getting tiresome.

 

I am not tiring of it at all actually.

I am just amazed at the has-beens, middleweights, staged fights, hopheads, amateurs and teenagers being trotted out to support Johnson's record. And now this misty-eyed, atomized holistic approach being used as the ultimate crutch is about the most hilarious thing I have seen on this board which I did not write.

 

Tommy Burns was pretty good.

 

The 6 best Liston beat

6'3 215lb Cleveland Williams 2x
6'3 212lb Nino Valdes
6'4 202lb Mike Dejohn
6'3 215lb Henry Clark
6'0 204lb Wayne Bethea

Williams was rated # 10, DeJohn # 7, Bethea # 9, Clark # 7, and Valdes was rated # 2 earlier that year.


On film, some of these guys display tremendous punching power and look much more advanced skill wise than the big men Jack Johnson fought


Who were Johnson's best?

Frank Moran? Terrible. A gooftrooper.
James Jeffries? Coming off a 6 year layoff
Sandy Fergusson?
Sam McVea? Had his balls even dropped yet?
Tony Ross?
Tom Cowler?

 

How much credit would we give Wladmir Klitschko is he beat Sergio Martinez? Would it be considered a defining victory in a Hall of Fame career?

If his name was Jack Johnson, it sure would.

 

We apparently consider it a defining win of his career when he beat Chris Byrd, a guy who later fought at light heavyweight.

If you are going to beat Johnson with the size stick, then at least have the integrity to use it consistently.

 

Byrd was an established force at heavyweight and weighed in at 213 pounds. Langford had beaten no one yet of note in the heavyweight ranks and weighed in at 156 pounds. Johnson was, for the day, a full fledged heavyweight at 185 pounds, just 9 pounds shy of his dominating performance against Burns.

I am not denigrating Johnson for beating the Langford like a redheaded stepchild. Kudo's for him. However, for me, it is not the shining moment on a great resume when a legit heavyweight takes out a middleweight.