Because officially it was a knockdown and even if Sonny stayed down only because he was waiting for a count ...Sonny was 100% likely to have been stopped from unanswered combinations soon after had it continued. Where is your gage on Being stopped? Surely punch resistance plays a part in getting stopped. In theory, if the punches make no effect then a fighter can go on like George Chuvalo always did. A fighters resistance is chipped away at until he can no longer defend himself. It’s still durability that is involved in that process. Strictly on what we saw. The first Ali fight was a legit stoppage too. I don’t think Sonny could have returned anymore leather had he came out. Sonny was getting beat up. Anything different is buying into an alibi.
I would agree that Louis is the better fighter overall though I give Liston a significant edge in durability. And my apologies for saying you weren't objective earlier in the thread. I was just irked at Choklab's blatant dishonesty and bias, while putting on this innocent front.
I believe the knockdown is legit. Sonny over extends trying to get at Ali and is countered by a punch he never saw coming, he is hurt and goes down. However he puts his arms out to break his fall, which indicates to me he still has his wits. This is where it gets murky to me. Obviously Liston getting up to one knee and then rolling back over, looks faker to me than a wrestling match. It’s bad acting imo. But eventually he does get up and tries to continue the fight - Ali swarms him and Liston’s shell up leaves me to believe he was hurt. Walcott as the 3rd man really lost control of Ali and in turn destroyed a much clearer picture from forming. I believe Liston got hurt and either 1. Knew he was in for a bad night and decided to check out. 2. Was going to take a dive later got hurt and said this is as good of time as any to get out of this. 3. Really was hurt bad got up as quick as he could thought the bout would continue and was covering up trying to survive the round when Walcott ended it. I think those are the plausible scenarios. I tend to believe the first one. 2&3 I’m open to listening to as. Reason
Yes this is a fair opinion. It’s pretty much in line with what I also think. The downside of the rematch clause era was that a lot of former champions had to go through with bouts where their heart was not in it. They had to go through with it wether they wanted it or not. Getting paid just as much if they won or lost. There was no opportunity to take a break, to reflect, rebuild with warmup fights and start over. Just straight back into the frying pan. I would not be surprised if Walcott didn’t really want his rematch with Marciano. If BoBo Olson wanted an immediate rematch with Robinson. Or if Floyd really wanted an immediate rematch with Liston. Or if Liston really wanted his immediate rematch with Ali. It’s not so much these fights were thrown. They just might not have wanted to be there.
I think Louis had a great chin, and I think getting knocked down many times is a good test of one's chin. Louis went down against Braddock, Galento, Baer, and Walcott to defeat all of them. They were are legitimate knockdowns. However, I would have to say I agree that Liston was tougher than Louis. Liston would and could take wicked shots and not even blink, just continue moving forward.
I'll take the guy who only had one legitimate knock down when he was a 40 something, no longer passionate weed smoker over the guy that went up and down like a yo-yo.
I don't even know how to determine that for certain with Liston. What would be something like Schmeling/Louis I for Liston?
10 KDs in 90 fights is not much considering how tough schedule Louis faced from start to finish, I don't get this hyberbole.
I think Liston may have had superior balance than Louis. That one area Joe wasn't elite. Even Sugar Ray noticed that Louis at times didnt have balance. Sometimes a KD is a result of poor balance.
My answer to this might change, based upon whether the second Ali fight was on the level or not. I don't think that it was on the level, but if it was, then you would have to give it to Louis!
Where are you getting 90 fights from? He had 69 pro bouts. Louis schedule was only tough at certain points of his career. Or are we pretending the bum of the month never happened? You're acting like he had to claw his way out of a murderer's row throughout his whole career. Either way my point wasn't that Louis was glass jawed, just that based on actual evidence the logical pick would be Liston. 1 knock down vs 10, and Liston's sole knockdown was when he was shot and unmotivated.
