Who had the better chin Rocky Marciano or Tom Sharkey?

1. "He was taller than Marciano"

So was Panama Al Brown. As a matter of fact, Brown was taller than not only Marciano, but Galento, Langford, Sharkey, and possibly Tyson. You think this makes Panama Al Brown "big"?

2. Spin McCoy until the cows come home, his weight for the Sharkey fight was given as 156 and the NY Times reporter commented how that seemed pretty accurate.

3. In your eyes, Jeffries might have punched harder than everybody. In mine he failed twice at his peak to stop a man who was knocked down twice by a 156 pounder and knocked out twice by Ruhlin. This is no disgrace and doesn't prove anybody punched harder than anybody, anymore than Levi Forte going ten with Foreman or Whitehurst twice going ten with Liston proves all the guys that knocked Forte or Whitehurst out were bigger punchers than Foreman or Liston.

5. The spin that Sharkey was somehow shot after the second Jeffries fight might not actually do Jeff's rep any good and I'm not certain why you are pushing it so hard. If Sharkey were shot, how do we know Ruhlin was all that good as he was only beating guys Sharkey was beating, plus Sharkey himself? And if Sharkey were shot, and therefore Ruhlin's stature called into question, how do we know Fitz was all that much by 1900. That he still had it rests on his beating Ruhlin and Sharkey. If they didn't amount to much, then Fitz hadn't really beaten a top man since Corbett and Jeff's 1899 victory could be utterly dismissed as just beating an old and faded and past his best super-middleweight who had lost it during a two year layoff.

6. It might be best to remember that Jeff's defenses in 1901 and 1902 were against a Ruhlin who earned the shot by beating Sharkey and a Fitz who earned his shot by in turn beating Ruhlin as well as Sharkey.

7. There is absolutely no evidence Sharkey was past his best in 1900. He came off the Jeffries fight with six straight ko's, including Choynski, whom he had not been able to ko in two earlier matches.

8. Fitz stopped men with one punch--Sometimes. But how many knockdowns did the 147 pound Jack Dempsey rise from before Fitz could finish him?
This is a description by Gilbert Odd of the Ruhlin fight:

2nd round--"A right to the jaw made Gus stagger, while a following left to the body clearly hurt and he backed away. Fitz was now hitting him almost at will, and obviously going for the knockout. He did put the bigger man down on his hands and knees for a short count."

4th round--"He had Ruhlin down again in the fourth round from a series of right swings to the head, the last of which opened a nasty gash by Gus's left eye. The 'Akron Giant' wiped the bood away with his glove as he watched the referee beating out the count and got up before ten."

5th round--"The bout became one-sided in the fifth round. Ruhlin was game and did his best to fight back, but Bob was hitting him as and where he pleased, and Gus was staggered again and again."

6th round--"Fitz punched away with both fists, driving Gus back steadily until he had him cornered. Then began the real job of demolition. Punches rained on the almost defenseless Ruhlin. A right to the jaw caused Gus to sag at the knees, and as he was going down, Fitz gave him another right-hander to the chin, then a fearful left hook to the body.

"Those last three blows came lightning fast, and Ruhlin crumpled into a heap on the canvas. Somehow he managed to rise in time, and then he was set upon by a whirlwind. Seeing he had his man going, Fitz let lose every punch at his command.

"Bob's blows were like an axeman's methodical felling of a tree. Ruhlin tottered and wavered until a tremendous left uppercut to the chin lifted him off his feet and sent him pitching to the boards. The referee did not bother to count."

Exciting and impressive to read, but a one-punch knockout? This sounds very similar to the Marciano-Moore demolition.

 

9. "It took Marciano and average of nine rounds to win his title matches"

It took Fitz 14 rounds to win the one title match he won.

It took Jeff 10.6 rounds, an average helped by the 1 round ko of Finnegan. Without Finnegan, his average was 12 rounds. (the Johnson fight is not included).

10. Dunkhurst--For a 170 lb man like Fitz to ko Dunkhurst is impressive, but let's put it in perspective. Dunkhurst had 33 fights in his career. He went 16-9-6 with 12 ko's. He was stopped 4 times, or about once in every eight fights. He was not particularly durable. There are various estimates for his weight against Fitz, up to 260 lbs. The most likely figure, given by Gilbert Odd, is 232 lbs, which is in line with his weight in fights the previous year. This is a huge man, close to 6' 4". He was a decent fighter who had a win over Bob Armstrong, and draws with Armstrong and Jim Hall.

In 1932, Mickey Walker, 5' 7" with a career high weight of 175 lbs took on Arthur DeKuh. DeKuh was 6' 3" or 6' 4" depending on the source, and weighed 223 for Walker. He had weighed several pounds more for earlier opponents. DeKuh had 63 fights in his career, going 47-14-1 with 33 ko's. He was stopped a total of 4 times or once in every 16 bouts. Less than a year earlier DeKuh had gone the distance with Max Baer. His only ko defeats had been to Jim Maloney, George Godfrey, and Tony Galento. He had wins over Bud Gorman, Bill Hartwell, Babe Hunt, Unknown Winston, and George Cook. I would say he seems to have been at least as good a fighter as Dunkhurst. Walker knocked DeKuh down 4 times and ko'd him in the 1st round, a performance at least as impressive as Fitz's against Dunkhurst. But I don't know of anyone who would consider Walker that big a puncher at welter or middle, let alone at heavyweight.

11. "Ruhlin was bigger than any ranked opponent Marciano fought"--Joe Louis was more than ten pounds, and possibly fifteen pounds, heavier than Ruhlin. This statement is just not true. Ruhlin might have been slightly taller, although that is debatable. It is a pity that Marciano did not fight Jimmy Stewart (6' 4", 146 lbs) to build up his image of facing your version of "big" opponents.

12. Charles was stopped by a super-middleweight when he was a 21 year old super-middleweight and, by the way, in the army and out of training. By the late forties he grew into a heavyweight, and at 6', was even taller than the towering McCoy. Charles faced a ton of big punchers over the years, far more than Sharkey.

13. By the way, I don't know if Marciano not stopping Lowry is such a big deal. Lowry was only ko'd 3 times in 144 fights, or once every 48 fights despite facing a whole raft of top sluggers in not only the lightheavyweight class, but all the way up to big heavyweights. Seriously, he might have been tougher to stop than anyone Jeffries ever faced, off his record. Marciano had only 50 rounds of professional fighting when he took on Lowry who was by that time a veteran of over 100 fights and had been in with all kinds of top class men such as Archie Moore, Tiger Jack Fox, and Lee Q Murray.

 

In a word, no.



I will say, though, in fairness to Mendoza, he has a point that most of the best men that the champions prior to the sixties faced were in the 170-200 lb class and Jeffries fought most of his opponents at those weights. If Jeff had fought a couple of big lugs like Dunkhurst or Jan Plaacke, he would have knocked them out but it wouldn't prove a thing. There just weren't that many good big men prior to the 1970's or so.

 

Can't be way off since I never said Chuvalo didn't have one of the greatest chins of all time. He did... but I tend to think that guys like Tua, McCall, and Chuvalo get too much credit for their chins rather than the more gutsy aggressive forward fighters do. That's all...

 

It is well known that Fitz was full of it when it came to his self reporting of weights. He almost never was willing to actually step on a scale in front of neutral unbiased viewers (including his opponents). Do not believe his claims about being a middleweight. He liked to say that so as to increase his prestige if he won, or to have an alibi if he lost. Total rubbish. There is ample primary source evidence that most reporters did not believe Fitz and joked about how he was unwilling to step on scales to prove his weight. He was no less than a super middle for most of those fights and he was probably at least a light heavy for most of them. He may well have been 180-190 for Jeffries. He was admitting to 200 pounds during his exhibition tour with Jeff and in the photos of him from that time, he wears the weight very well.

 

Wish I'd been around for this debate. :smoke

 

Is this even a debate? Tua, Chuvalo and Tyson have considerably better chins than Marciano.

Huge difference in the level of puncher they faced, Rock had a top chin though regardless.

 

Rocky Marciano had a hell of a chin, but he also had the defense to go along with it unlike Tom Sharkey, Sharkey's downfall against clever counter-punchers. Ironically his namesake Jack Sharkey (named after Tom) was one of the best defensive heavyweights, but did not take a great punch.

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I wonder how a Rocky Marciano v Bob Fitzsimmons (at 200 lbs) tour would have went down?:think I mean with Fitz being the bigger fighter in all respects, it would have been very interesting, wouldnt it?

 

This is like comparing Muhammed Ali to Chris Byrd