Who has better resume; Joe Louis or Muhammad Ali?

I won’t vote on the poll as I often have these guys tied for first at heavy. And in truth they have different types of achievements. Joe Louis had uninterrupted long term dominance. Muhammad Ali beat a gallery of opponents who rate very high by many historians standards and overcame huge betting odds to defeat men he wasn’t supposed to. I have no problem with anyone who rates one over the other, but in my book they will be locked in as the two best for a very long time…. Maybe forever

 

I'm curious. Why do you count losing to Schmeling as losing to a "Hall of Fame type" but not count beating Schmeling as a "high level" win?

 

Ali has FIVE wins over THREE of my top ten ATG list.
(Foreman, Frazier , Liston)

Joe's best name (Jersey Joe Walcott) is 17 on my list.

And that's just at the top of the list. If we go further down Ali's list, I think he has quite a bit better set of names than has Joe.

I have Joe at number 2 all-time .

Longevity, and highly skilled.

 

You're changing the goal posts. You were referring to Ali's second reign when you made this post.
"Second reign, he was never able to cement himself as dominant. He pulled wins out, but didn't stand head and shoulders above his competitors like he used to."
So you can't bring in knockdowns from a completely different reign to prove your point.

 

I wasn't arguing Ali demonstrated his superiority solely based on his durability. I was arguing against your point that Ali was never able to cement himself as dominant in his second career and didn't stand head and shoulders above his opponents like he did previously. Louis himself wasn't exactly dominant himself at times when he found himself on the canvas 10+ times in his career.

Also, it's a lot easier to look better against guys like Baer than it is Foreman, Frazier, Norton, etc.

 

Louis bludgeoning Max Baer was incredible, though. I know, you're talking about Big Buddy Baer but thought I'd throw that in.

 

Ali did fight a lot of old dudes in his first rodeo.

 

Chimes very much with my thought process when asked to evaluate this two great fighters, well laid out response. sty safe buddy.

 

The fact that Ali was past his best in his second reign and the level of competition was stronger probably makes his overall achievements greater.
Having said that I have no issue with people having Joe Louis as number one.

 

Two great fighters obviously, but my pick is Ali.

 

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

 

Hadn't he hit his stride when he faced Schmeling the first time you mean? He was certainly still improving, but the guy who made easy work of Carnera and Baer had hit his stride I'd say. Even though there was bump in the road in Schmeling.

Also Farr, Godoy and Conn wasn't obliterated. Neither was Pastor. Not that Ali breezed past everyone in the 60's either, but thought it was worth pointing out.

And besides Frazier and Norton, Ali was winning most of his fight with relative ease in the 70's until he became very shopworn after Manilla. Foreman wasn't easy, but a clear win nonetheless. After Manilla, every good opponent was a struggle, but I think a mid 30's fighter having fought that kind of opposition for more than a decade can be excused for that.

In the early 70's he easily beat top contenders like Ellis and Quarry x 2. Bonavena and Foreman were perhaps his toughest fights of that period bar Frazier and Norton, and he knocked out both while ahead on points. So "pulled out wins" mostly fits post Manilla when he was way past his prime.

Also you make more out of Patterson getting injured after being outclassed for five rounds than I do. If the back injury had happened in the first, like Cerdan's injury against Lamotta, I'd also feel that it would make the fight inconclusive. But there was noting in the 5 rds up to the injury that suggested that Patterson would ever get into the fight. Cerdan, on the other hand, was still competitive fighting one-armed until he eventually gave up.

 

Let’s not forget Joe Louis still holds the record of 25 consecutive title defenses. That’s the record for all weight divisions. Still stands. And he lost 4 years to the war. During which time he fought like 90 exhibition bouts. He clearly was not the same guy post war.

 

I think that we put Louis to way too high standard. He didn't stop all of his opponents, but it doesn't mean that he didn't dominate them. Conn and Godoy I were certainly tough fights for him, but he beat Farr and Pastor with ease - he just didn't stop them.

Ali also had a lot of wins without stoppage when he won the fight clearly.