Who has the better 49-0, Rocky or Floyd?

Marciano had no talent and only won the belt because he was Italian and thr Italian mob controlled boxing. How many Italian's living in the USA won a title since then? Marciano's wins came against old men,bums, and mob controlled fighters. Mayweather actually beat good fighters in their primes.

 

That is a very slippery slope. Every top fighter in boxing history had shady connections(necessary connections) to help them get to where they wanted to go. Marciano certainly wouldn't have been as successful in his career if he didn't have the shady and well connected Al Weill guiding his career. This is also the case for Muhammad Ali and Frazier, who both had very powerful syndicates behind them when they turned pro. Ali and Frazier wouldn't have become champions without this support early in their careers. Floyd Mayweather also wouldn't have been undefeated if he didn't have the shady and well connected Bob Arum both guiding and carefully matching him early in his career so he could gradually develop into the fighter he became. Nobody gets a world title fight on talent alone.

At least two fights involving the Los Angeles star, Oscar De La Hoya, are under scrutiny, as are bouts of the popular local heavyweight boxer, Eric "Butterbean" Esch, amid suspicions that - quite unknown to either man - their opponents were bribed to be beaten.

The Las Vegas boxing business has been left in turmoil. A spokesman for Top Rank said the company "does not know the scope of the government's investigation" but was "lawfully co-operating with it".

The spokesman added: "Top Rank will not comment on or respond to the rumours, speculations and unverified allegations appearing in the media. Top Rank will continue to focus on its business of promoting boxing."

Las Vegans are transfixed by the story of one of the most colourful police operations in the city's history.

"Big Frankie", aka Frankie Manzione, was secretly commissioned in 2002 by the FBI to infiltrate the Las Vegas boxing industry. Manzione had previously penetrated the notorious Genovese family in New York, securing 72 Mafia-related arrests.

His brief in Las Vegas was to investigate rumours of fight-fixing smuggled across the US border.

Joey Torres, a convicted murderer who was temporarily released from prison in 2002, agreed to help Manzioni make contacts in the boxing world. At the age of 42, he resumed his boxing career and was registered on Top Rank's books. By cooperating, he hoped to avoid being returned to jail.

The two quickly developed an unlikely partnership. With the help of Torres, "Big Frankie" became a fixture in Top Rank's offices and a regular at private social events attended by the city's biggest boxing promoters. According to locals, he was frequently seen with the sport's most powerful figures at favourite haunts along the Strip.

An FBI agent posed as his driver and the two men pieced together the internal workings of the various deals between Top Rank and its stable of fighters. At one stage, said colleagues, Manzioni was even offered a job as a cornerman during fights. He was also invited on "scouting missions" for new fighters.

By the end of last year, the suspicion of questionable activity at Top Rank was strong enough for the FBI to launch a raid. Based on Manzoni's reports, police are now investigating allegations of fighters taking the ring under multiple aliases, soft match-ups to assist popular boxers and widespread "skimming" of fighters' fees by Top Rank executives.

Top Rank's promoter, Bob Arum, has denied any wrongdoing by the company or its employees. But last week one fighter, Mitchell Rose, alleged that in 1995 he was offered money by Top Rank to throw a fight against Eric Esch.

"Top Rank said, 'We have some money for you, a substantial amount of money'," said Mr Rose. "They wanted me to take a dive. They didn't want me to beat 'Butterbean'." Rose refused to take the alleged bribe and won the fight.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...e-ring-to-investigate-Vegas-fight-fixing.html

 

Comedy post.

 

I much prefer when these polls are visible and you can check out which way different posters picked.

Now I'll have to read the entire thread if I want to discover how @RockyJim and @The Undefeated Lachbuster voted.

 

Notable names on resumes:

Marciano:
1. Prime Walcott
2. Prime (debatable for second fight) Charles
3. Slightly Past Prime Moore
4. Shot Louis
5. Good contenders like Layne

Mayweather:
1. Past prime Pacquiao
2. Past Prime De La Hoya
3. Good contenders like Alvarez

This goes to Marciano

Did they dodge anyone?

Mayweather: Yes (Crawford, Spence, Thurman, prime Pacquiao, GGG and Garcia if he decided to fight the best of other divisions he could easily make, etc)

Marciano: No (Any attempt to bring up Nino Valdes, who lost to Satterfield and Moore, will be laughed at)

Who had the more dominant run? Marciano

Marciano accomplished 49-0 in 7 years with minimal amateur experience, Floyd had all the amateur experience in the world and accomplished 49-0 over 19 years. Marciano was fighting more frequently at a weight class that usually requires less frequent fights, and with less experience. And started at 24, with the official beginning being 25.

Now, Floyd conquered multiple weight classes. But, Floyd weighed the same amount as his opponent every fight. Marciano, being a heavyweight, didn't have the privilege of being able to conquer multiple weight classes. HOWEVER, Marciano fought men much bigger than himself, in fact, Marciano's average opponent had 8lbs, 2" height and 6" reach over Marciano. The most of any heavyweight champion.


All in all:

Upper tier competition: Marciano
Harder journey to the top: Marciano
Champion qualities (face best of division): Marciano
Size disadvantage: Marciano


All in all, Marciano is a clear pick from my perspective. Longevity doesn't really mean much if the other man accomplished the same in a shorter time frame. Sure, Floyd faced a bunch of champions, no-named, abc belt cheese champs that wouldn't exist in Marciano's 1 belt era. Besides that, Marciano clearly fought the better high end competition, with Ezzard Charles higher on any p4p rank than ANYONE has of Mayweather's opponents.

Or you could shout "mafia protected bum that fought other bums and old men" in ignorance, though i thought this forum was beyond that.

 

Crawford? Golovkin?.... Wow! In that case dinky lil' Marciano ducked everyone at LHW while active (plus Valdez at HW obviously) and then ducked Liston and Clay by conveniently retiring. I'll let him off the hook for missing Frazier although I will say the alleged 'accident' was again very convenient for his legacy.

Also why does May get no credit for none of Cotto, Mosley, Marquez, Corrales or Hatton?

Isn't Floyd's amateur pedigree advantage offset by the fact that Rocky was born "a once in a generation" talent?

Floyd challenge himself by campaigning in other divisions whereas Marcy was too lazy to put in the required graft and shed a little blubber in a quest for lighter division glory. Thems just the facts Jack!

 

Just want to say that I love both these guys and don't care to define them against each other. Two true champs in my book.

 

Marciano was a heavyweight, how was he gonna go down to LHW? Mayweather could've fought Crawford or Spence instead of Conor, which is still counted as a real fight for some reason

The hell are you going on about with Marciano? Marciano didn't duck anyone

Besides, Marciano had already beaten the 2 greatest LHWs at heavyweight, so nothing would be proven by him going to LHW.

 

Floyd beat some of the best in three eras. Rocky did not get in the ring with Liston, Patterson, or Ali.

 

Because Marciano was retired???

Mayweather's 3 eras has no names to compare to Marciano's 2.

 

Oh, we're giving a retirement discount to someone who competed in one of the worst heavyweight eras of all time.

 

If a fighter is retired, he's retired. I fail to see the relevance. Making a case that Marciano should have fought Ali 6-7 years after he retired is ridiculous.

 

Oh, is that myth still going around? Even with great champs like Walcott and Charles, and great contenders like Satterfield, Layne, Valdes and LaStarza

Well, even then you failed to debunk any of my earlier points. Marciano was retired due to back problems, family problems, and thieving manager.

Mayweather cherry picked his opponents and would party before the fights and still make weight easily. Mayweather could've fought who I listed, Marciano fought everyone.

 

If people are going to criticize Marciano for retiring because he wisely realised that his body was packing up and that he didn't have the fire anymore, and decided to call it a day - then Imma call Mayweather out for dodging Golovkin who he repeatedly and ad nauseum insisted was "#easywork".

 

I dont know for sure who had the better resume, but there is some blatant hypocrisy in this thread:


1) some people insist walcott was prime or a "late bloomer" and hold rockys win over him as A level elite win but say the pacquiao who floyd beat was past his prime or even washed up.

This is an absolutely ludicrous claim and requires a lot of mental gymnastics and ignoring of facts to accept. First of all, walcott was 38, pacquiao was 36. Even if u want to ignore the fact he was 2 years older and go with the "people age differently in boxing" line of thinking, walcott had been in nearly 70 professional fights and had more than 10 losses (including knockouts). No matter how skilled a veteran walcott was or how good he looked in the fight, you cant ignore the wear and tear he had and then make a huge deal out of pacquiao's condition when he was younger than walcott and had far less fights and less losses.

In addition, pacquiao held the WBO championship and was #2 p4p in the world. A "washed up" fighter cannot possibly be ranked that high, especially in a hot division like 147 when in comparison walcotts heavyweight division was very lackluster and having very few prime, skilled athletes.

2) criticizing floyd for fighting the marquez who moved up in weight but ignoring marciano fighting light heavyweights charles and moore.

This one is self explanatory. Marquez was a mere 1 inch shorter than floyd, and a mere 4 lbs lighter the day of the fight. People act as though floyd was the size of an offensive lineman and marquez was a dwarf the way they talk about this fight. Additionaly, Marquez was the #2 p4p fighter in the world and he is the one who called out floyd (who was inactive for 2 years). Floyd was only a 2 1/2 to 1 betting favorite, meaning the odds were very close and many people thought marquez had a chance of winning, but no one wants to talk about that.

For some reason floyd gets no credit for beating him in a completely 1-sided demolition. Yet rocky once again gets full credit for beating a very shopworn older archie moore who moved up from light weight. I saw earlier that people claim marquez "hadnt adjusted to the weight" and looked out of his element. Well i would argue that moore was never a particularly "great" heavyweight and would go on to get demolished by patterson a year after being demolished by rocky. Marquez on the other hand, would make a name for himself at 147 having conpetitive bouts with alavarado, bradley, and winning his bitter rivalry with p4p king manny pacquiao.

3) people say alavarez was green despite having more than 40 fights and held 2 championship belts. They dismiss not his number of fights but the quality of his opposition. They also flat out ignore the fact he was bigger, stronger, and 11 years younger than floyd, claim he was "drained" even though he was at the same weight he had been for his last 5 fights (and rehydrated to be several pounds heavier than floyd).

Once again, there is hyoocrisy and dishonesty here. Rocky, NEVER EVER beat a man who was bigger, several years younger, and regarded as a big name in the sport. The closest comparison is Rex Layne but he was not in the same class as Rocky in terms of skill, defense, endurance, anything other than just strength. Out of all of rockys opponents, the only other prime skilled ranked fighter he beat was roland la starza, a decision many people disputed at the time. And if you want to pick apart canelo's resume and say he wasnt ready for floyd, la starza didnt exactly have an impressive resume either so theres that.

Notice a trend? No matter how good the opponent, there are a dozen and a half reasons why Floyd should get no credit for the win, and at the same time no matter how bad, old, shopworn, or mediocre *some* of rockys opponents are they are held as grade A elite wins and there is nothing to criticize--otherwise, you dont know **** about boxing or youre a rocky "hater".