Who has the style to upset a prime Ali

A prime Jack Dempsey would bring an incredible amount of pressure & he had a terrific left hook. He would be constantly on Ali & Ali would be hard pressed to keep him off for too long. Althouth a battle of two greats might not be considered too much of an upset.

 

You make a good point but i do still like Marciano, but like i said about the size so it's more a hypothetical 'pound for pound' sense which maybe rules him out for me anyway. I have pondered this one many a time and i do still come back to Rocky personally. Although i do reconsider when i think the money punch was usually a left hook for Muhammad, whereas Marciano's right was more murderous for him, slightly.

 

Holmes was taken to the title by Ritchie Giachetti, obviously a fine trainer, but not somebody ideally suited to strategizing for a peak Ali. But Larry then went and hired Eddie Futch, somebody who clearly understood how to box Muhammad better than any opposing trainer (including Ali's own Angelo Dundee, who worked against Muhammad with Jimmy Ellis). Holmes had the physical attributes and smarts necessary to carry out Futch's instructions.

Let me be clear here. The Ali of Cleveland Williams may have been the closest thing to an invincible heavyweight we've ever seen, and I wouldn't bet money on anybody to beat that hyperactive version of the GOAT. But with Futch in his corner, Larry might have done more than any other fantasy opponent to get Muhammad off his toes and harrass him effectively with his jab. Eddie also taught Holmes how to stop telegraphing his right, and Folley did manage to score with successive right leads in their match.

Futch was the one guy Ali least wanted to see in the opposing corner, and Larry had him for his legacy match with Cooney. (The last champion mentored by Futch was Bowe, something which ought to be taken into account when contemplating Ali-Bowe as well.)

 

A completely fair observation JT, and I've been building large bases from tenuously narrow foundations ever since I joined ESB (as you know all too well). But it's what I have to work with, and extrapolating like this always carries substantial risks. (With SRR vs Hearns, I probably wouldn't have done that using the Shields bout alone, but had the Weston straw to grasp at.)

Ali was tremendous against Terrell, but Ernie was also dreadful in that one, compared to how he appeared later that year with Spencer. The Ali of the Williams fight would have been interesting to see against Folley, a small and aging but skilled and intelligent boxer who didn't leave himself wide open to the sort of dazzling attack Muhammad took apart the Big Cat with. I'm surmising that Ali-Folley was always going to be something of a chess match. Patterson was never going to seriously challenge him, but it might have been revealing to see how Floyd would have done if his back wasn't screwed up, as Muhammad said he had the best skills of any challenger he defended against.

Right. I tend to focus on Folley because he was trying to win, not merely survive as Terrell did through most of their match, had some early success against a fast starter for his style of boxing, and because he did get Muhammad off his toes and slowed down a bit in exercising some caution. Ali himself said to Cosell after Spinks II that he himself considered Williams and then Folley to be his two peaks. (To me, it's interesting that he didn't include Terrell in that mix.)

In 1967, Ali didn't seem too excited about the crop of contenders left after Folley, and spoke with no great inspiration about his next scheduled defense in Tokyo against Bonavena. Nobody was going to properly motivate him before Frazier was ready. (If Joe's bad eye forced him into a premature retirement as it did Leotis Martin, I don't think Ali would have ever returned from exile.)

So would I. Speed kills, and Fleischer said he was the fastest.

Ali-Frazier in 1968 or 1969 would have been a fast paced and hectic 15 rounds, but Ali would have had too much athleticism to succumb at that stage.

Frazier is a perfectly rational choice, considering how Ali didn't mind giving away bodyshots.

 

Marciano,Frazier, Holmes and Lewis.

 

Oh, good. So I'm not the only one that thinks that. I Ali lands on Holmes much easier than vice versa by virtue of his legs, speed and reflexes. I also think Ali would adjust well to the Holmes jab after maybe the first four rounds and distances himself slightly better (presuming you 'forget' the fact they sparred together to null any advantage)

I like Marciano's style, but young Ali was sick good at cutting people. I remember Henry Cooper saying 'Ali's jab was a long jab, he stretched it outward, and it dragged your flesh.' (instead of a dull impact, which lead to cuts)

Tyson has the fast pressure down pat, but I feel Ali can win a war. I feel he has such an edge mentally here -- he's unlikely to be knocked out early, and will be there for the later rounds. I see Mike's eyes closing around the 8th. I don't know if Mike has that special toughness to deal with it and win -- he can take punishment, but can he do more than absorb and tip the scales of power? I'm doubtful.

Weird ass shout that doesn't belong here, but I'd love to see Witherspoon in there with Ali. He could pull a Norton.

 

No, it's not all that weird, provided Tim is in shape, properly motivated, and doesn't get stupid like he did with Holmes (claiming that he thought he had Larry beat with a couple rounds to go). He wasn't the kind of opponent Ali was likely to stop.

 

Prime for prime Futch picked Holmes over Ali,maybe he was biased but he was a very astute trainer.
I think Folley won those early rounds by default,Ali gave them ,he didn't win them,imo.I think Ali showed some compassion that night to be honest.

 

with roids around, who knows.

 

:nono

Helluva fight, but Ali takes it by being a bit quicker, a bit smarter, and a little tougher.

 

Remember too tho that Hearns was a genuine fledgling (which you admit) when he fought Weston and was caught up a bit by his vast experience. If we took SRR at a similar career stage i am sure he too would have had his struggles and inexperience.

By the same token too the monster that was Hearns at Duran 154 time is an entirely different animal to the one that fought Shields. Regardless of whether SRR had more experience the fight would be won and lost on ability. Hearns had learnt many lessons from the SRL loss and was more tactically sound. He was plenty experienced to give his best vs Robinson by then.

The other thing, a biggie, is what was the scores vs Shields? Hearns was ahead 119-110, 119-111 and 120-109. Do you think SRR is going to sit back defensive like this and get basically whitewashed on rounds? He's coming to win, and by coming to win Hearns will have plenty of offensive opportunites. Robinson is not a Benitez or Whitaker, and he will exchange plenty.

Terrell wasn't fighting Spencer tho, he was fighting Ali. I hear a bit of how bad Terrell was that night, but if he mimicked a rabbit caught in headlights it's still attributable to Ali, whether phychologically or physically. Ali owned him, bigtime. He performed a psych job on him then backed it up in the ring.

You make a very very interesting point here, one i'd never considered. Ali would have come back at some point tho, he like many others adored the limelight and would have been back chasing it. Retiring for good just doesn't come easy for boxers.

Agreed!

Agreed!

I picked this up from your post just prior because i am utterly in agreeance. This is the whole story right here for me. You and i are just picking those we think would put on the best show (with some sort of chance), really.

 

An out of shape, out of the ring for years, pot bellied rusty Ali.

Mhm boy nice job telling both sides there.

 

Holmes, Lewis, Louis, Norton and Frazier. Whether they could is another thing altogether.

 

Knowing Rocky, he might have been in better shape than Ali for that exhibition!

Bloody monster.