Who Hit harder Ken Norton or Jersey Joe Walcott?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, Apr 30, 2009.


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  1. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    This got me thinking when someone chose norton in another thread.

    1. I did some research, outside of mediocre duane bobick, Ken Norton never even FLOORED a Ring Magazine top 10 fighter. Ultimatley he did not carry his power up to the world class level. Walcott on the otherhand displays bigger displays of power on film than Norton, knocking out and knocking down hall of famer world class fighters multiple times, and all walcott needed was one punch to knock you out. Norton did not have that kind of one punch power.

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    Both had some impressive knockouts over journeyman...but lets see how they did once they stepped up

    Nortons best knockouts

    TKO 1 Duane Bobick- Ring Magazine top 10
    TKO 5 Jerry Quarry- Fat out of shape 207lb with a drug problem taking this fight on one weeks notice. Quarry was NOT in the ring magazine top 10 at the time of this fight.
    TKO 5 Jose Luis Garcia- NOT in the top 10 anymore
    KO 5 Ron Stander- NOT in the top 10


    Walcotts best knockouts

    KO 7 Ezzard Charles- Ended a 3 year winning streak and ended Charles long reigning heavyweight crown with one perfect punch
    KO 3 Harold Johnson- Hall of Famer and top 10 Ring Magazine at the time
    KO 10 Hatchetman Sheppard- Top 10 Ring Magazine
    TKO 3 Tommy Gomez- Top 10 Ring Magazine


    Norton flooring Ring Magazine Top 10

    Duane Bobick 1x

    The other Ring Magazine top 10 he fought Ali 3x, Holmes, Young, Foreman, Garcia 1st time, Ledoux, Shavers, Cooney....HE NEVER FLOORED ANY OF THESE MEN


    Now Walcott Flooring Ring Magazine top 10

    Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis 3x, Harold Johnson, Elmer Ray 3x, Jimmy Bivins, Joey Maxim, Lee Oma, Hatchetman Sheppard, Ezzard Charles, Omelio Agramonte 3x, Tommy Gomez,


    Walcott holds the clear edge here Flooring 11 different Ring Magazine top 10 heavyweight contenders, to Norton's 1. Walcott also knocked down 5 different Hall of Famers while norton knocked down ZERO hall of famers.
     
    SuzieQ49, Apr 30, 2009
    SuzieQ49, Apr 30, 2009
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  2. turpinr

    turpinr Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    for a fighter who's best punch prior to beating charles was supposedly a sneaky right hand,his left hook was beautiful ,both in timing and power.

    walcott for me:good
     
    turpinr, Apr 30, 2009
    turpinr, Apr 30, 2009
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  3. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    This topic was on another thread about a year ago, and I argued hammer and tong with Marciano_Frazier over this.

    I have chosen Norton on the basis that he Ko'd or stopped more fighters in less professional bouts, leaving himself with the higher win/ko ration. This does not always mean everything, but there is more. When I look at Norton's opponent list on boxrec, he fought a lot more fighters who were over 200 lbs than Jersey did, and during what many considered as a more competitive era. If we look at most of the fighters that went the distance with Norton, we see names like Muhammad Ali, Jimmy Young, Tex Cobb, etc. Looking at these records one can conclude that those fighters survived the combined artillery of Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Earnie Shavers, Joe Frazier, and Gerry Cooney among others. Walcott's one punch KO over Charles was a picture perfect shot, however he only managed to do this once in 4 meetings with the guy, leaving me with the indication that it was a one time deal and not a representation of great punching power. Just to give us some scale, Michael Nunn once scored a first round KO over all time great Sumbu Kalambay with the first landed shot of the fight. Nunn was no puncher.
     
    mr. magoo, Apr 30, 2009
    mr. magoo, Apr 30, 2009
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  4. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member

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    Think I would go with Arnold Cream, though his win over Johnson can be discounted ,as you know Suzie it was a physical problem that led to the stoppage ,you sneaky little Seal you.

    Walcott's ko over Charles and his dumping of Marciano in the first round are text book examples of perfectly executed punches.and should be standard viewing for aspiring boxers imo.
     
    mcvey, Apr 30, 2009
    mcvey, Apr 30, 2009
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  5. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    NOPE I did lengthy research on this with MF and Fogster and we all found out that harold johnson was knocked down in the 2nd round from hard walcott shots and johnson fell on his back hurting his back. BUT THE THING HERE IS johnson hurt his back FROM getting sent to the canvas by hard walcott shots. So this victory was very legite. Walcott was dominating johnson before he hurt his back. An Old Historian(he wishes me not to say his name) his poster name here is Albinored who was around at the time in 1950s, said Walcott legite knocked johnson out. Philadelphia Boxing History website reported Johnson was floored in the 2nd round, and very groggy from walcott shots in the 3rd round.

    But shouldn't we judge how they did vs elite world class opposition? shouldnt we judge by film? On film when Walcott landed his best punch his opponent(usually HOFs) when down hard and fast....Norton on the otherhand never displayed one punch power the way Walcott did.

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    Norton flooring Ring Magazine Top 10

    Duane Bobick 1x

    The other Ring Magazine top 10 he fought Ali 3x, Holmes, Young, Foreman, Garcia 1st time, Ledoux, Shavers, Cooney....HE NEVER FLOORED ANY OF THESE MEN


    Now Walcott Flooring Ring Magazine top 10

    Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis 3x, Harold Johnson, Elmer Ray 3x, Jimmy Bivins, Joey Maxim, Lee Oma, Hatchetman Sheppard, Ezzard Charles, Omelio Agramonte 3x, Tommy Gomez,


    Walcott holds the clear edge here Flooring 11 different Ring Magazine top 10 heavyweight contenders, to Norton's 1. Walcott also knocked down 5 different Hall of Famers while norton knocked down ZERO hall of famers.
     
    SuzieQ49, Apr 30, 2009
    SuzieQ49, Apr 30, 2009
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  6. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    It seems going by Film, Record, and Historians opinion....there seems no plausible way to rate norton over walcott as a puncher. Norton was NEVER known as a puncher(only he claimed so himself in his autobiography), while walcott was seen as a deadly puncher in his era
     
    SuzieQ49, Apr 30, 2009
    SuzieQ49, Apr 30, 2009
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  7. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    I think you're confusing the topic of your thread which is " who hit harder ", vs " who was the better puncher. "

    If we're going by who was a better puncher, then I'd pick Ray " Boom Boom " Mancini over both of them. When discussing actual power and punching ability however, that brings up a whole different argument.
     
    mr. magoo, Apr 30, 2009
    mr. magoo, Apr 30, 2009
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  8. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Then we have to bring film into the equation....When Norton landed his best punch on film vs World Class fighters, they DID NOT go down. When Walcott landed his best punch on film vs Hall of Fame World Class fighters, they went down hard and fast. Fact of the Matter is Walcott did not need multiple punchers to floor opponents like Norton did, Walcott needed just ONE punch to put top ranking challengers down each time, either his counter right hand or powerful left hook(a much harder punch than anything norton showed on film)
     
    SuzieQ49, Apr 30, 2009
    SuzieQ49, Apr 30, 2009
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  9. Holmes' Jab

    Holmes' Jab Master Jabber Full Member

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    Walcott.
     
    Holmes' Jab, Apr 30, 2009
    Holmes' Jab, Apr 30, 2009
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  10. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    I think you need to look at the perameters of the fighters you're comparing and perhaps you'll get the answer you're looking for. Walcott isn't knocking out Muhammad, Jimmy Young or Tex Cobb either. And I have serious reservations concerning his ability to do something as dramatic as breaking Ali's jaw.

    Here let's simplify this even more:

    FIGHTERS KO'D OVER 200 LBS:

    NORTON - 21

    WALCOTT - 5

    Of the 5 200 pounders who Walcott stopped, the vast majority were Journeyman or tomato cans, and one of them even had a record of 1-4.
     
    mr. magoo, Apr 30, 2009
    mr. magoo, Apr 30, 2009
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  11. groove

    groove Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Bobick 215 pounds, Quarry 207 pounds, Garcia 213 pounds, Stander 229 pounds. Norton also broke Ali's jaw with his lightweight punch :lol:

    Charles 182 pounds, Johnson 180 pounds, Sheppard 191 pounds (he's the big heavy 5'11''), Gomez 182 pounds. 50s heavies were really small compared to Norton's era.
     
    groove, Apr 30, 2009
    groove, Apr 30, 2009
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  12. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Well guess what....Outside of Duane Bobick...not one of those other 200lbers Norton kayoed were in Ring Magazine top 10, making them all Journeyman level fighters. So were back to ground zero. Btw I would hardly call Ollie Tandberg a tomato can, if you ever read some newspaper articles of the 1940s they were dubbing Tandberg as the the man to bring the heavyweight title back to europe and declared him the divisions most dangerous big threat after he beat the snot out of leading contender joe baksi. Walcott utterly destroyed the man no one wanted to fight.

    I dont think 200lb is a good barometer to check....I think Ring magazine top 10 is a bettter way. If you want to go by size, then watch Walcott vs 6'2 213lb Louis on film, watch how easy louis goes to to the floor after walcott tags him with one punch each time.


    Norton flooring Ring Magazine Top 10

    Duane Bobick 1x

    The other Ring Magazine top 10 he fought Ali 3x, Holmes, Young, Foreman, Garcia 1st time, Ledoux, Shavers, Cooney....HE NEVER FLOORED ANY OF THESE MEN


    Now Walcott Flooring Ring Magazine top 10

    Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis 3x, Harold Johnson, Elmer Ray 3x, Jimmy Bivins, Joey Maxim, Lee Oma, Hatchetman Sheppard, Ezzard Charles, Omelio Agramonte 3x, Tommy Gomez,


    Walcott holds the clear edge here
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    . Walcott also knocked down 5 different Hall of Famers while norton knocked down ZERO hall of famers.


    NOW THATS A HUGE different in numbers right there...Norton did not carry his power up




    Walcott would have floored Ali and Young defintley....Walcott also would have floored holmes and easily knocked out ledoux(who norton couldnt even floor)
     
    SuzieQ49, Apr 30, 2009
    SuzieQ49, Apr 30, 2009
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  13. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member

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    Well,I havent done any research on it , I understood he had a back/neck injury ,but will concede the point with no qualms.Looking at the short list you provided another thing strikes me ,how many top punchers of his era Walcott fought,I mean Ray Sheppard,Gomez for starters.You have to wonder how good Walcott might have been if Roxborough and Black had gone with him instead of Louis.
     
    mcvey, Apr 30, 2009
    mcvey, Apr 30, 2009
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  14. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Walcott also fought leading heavyweight contenders # 4 rated 6'1 218lb Joe Baksi, Champion 6'2 213lb Joe louis 2x, # 3 rated 6'3 208lb Lee Q Murray, Undefeated European Champion 6'6 220lb Hein Ten Hoff, and European sensation 6'3 210lb Ollie Tandberg, tough strong boston fringe contender 6'5 220lb Johnny Skhor, These would be big men in the 1970s.
     
    SuzieQ49, Apr 30, 2009
    SuzieQ49, Apr 30, 2009
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  15. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Good Point. Pontius did a thread a while back, and it was found out of all heavyweight champions....Walcott fought and beat more "Punchers" than any heavyweight champion besides Ali and Lennox.

    Rex Layne
    Tommy Gomez
    Hatchetman Sheppard 2x
    Tiger Jack Fox 2x
    Rocky Marciano 2x
    Joe Louis 2x
    Elmer Ray 3x
    Lee Q Murray
    Lorenzo Pack
    Hein Ten Hoff

    All these men were the biggest punchers of the era who walcott fought, and most of the men on this list appear in Rings top 100 punchers of all time list
     
    SuzieQ49, Apr 30, 2009
    SuzieQ49, Apr 30, 2009
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