Who hit harder?

Williams KO'd 58 of 92 opponents or 63%

Frazier KO'd 27 of 37 opponents or 73%

"How many of these would you estimate have readily available footage."

Which is a function of Williams fighting a lot of second-raters in tank town venues,

while Frazier was a world class fighter in the center ring almost from the beginning.

I would point out that fighters like most of Frazier's opposition are up there because they can take it and don't go down and out easily. Williams fought a lot more tomato cans.

 

A more correct comparison would be a golfer who hits the ball very far, but only gets an average score due to his poor putting. He probably has more force than the one who doesn't hit the ball as far but gets a better score due to his much better putting and overall play.

Frazier never pushed someone as big and string as Liston around, from memory. That's a fact no matter who's their respective build.

 

Jones?

He fought a lot of top men at heavyweight. Frazier was the only one to put him down for the count. Jones weighed 188 for Frazier. He hadn't fought at light-heavy for years.

 

I disagree. Putting has nothing to do with power. Your comparison is more like comparing a jab and move guy with a puncher. Obviously the jab and move guy might not punch as hard, but wins the fight on skill.

First place, having just watched both Liston-Williams fights, I didn't see Williams pushing Liston around. In the first round of their first fight Liston stood outside and tried to box Williams, and Williams just punched him a lot. As Jack Drees commented, Williams seemed to have the longer reach. (I thought that interesting) In the second round Liston started coming forward and Williams began giving ground.

As for someone bigger and stronger than Liston, who knows about stronger, but Mathis was certainly bigger.

Williams really gets a lot of mileage out of one good round out of two fights with Liston in which he failed to last a total of five rounds. Journeyman Willi Besmanoff went further in only one fight with Liston.

 

Yeah, the point was that putting has nothing to do with power. Just like a lots of thing in boxing. Power alone won't make you very successful.

Mathis was a tub of lard. He wasn't very strong in any sense. And, yes, Williams bulls Liston around quite a bit in the first round of their first fight.

Frazier was clearly physically weaker than not just Foreman but also Chuvalo. Perhaps also Bonavena, but I have to rewatch those before I say something remotely definite on the subject. And it isn't really worth the bother. Since who gives an F. Joe did fantastically with what he had.

 

Good comparison!

 

Williams really gets a lot of mileage out of one good round out of two fights with Liston in which he failed to last a total of five rounds. Journeyman Willi Besmanoff went further in only one fight with Liston.[/QUOTE]
Did Besmanoff break Liston's nose, force him to give ground ,get a rave review about his power?
Liston vWilliams had a second fight because their first was an entertaining brawl with both men throwing and taking big shots.
Anyone express any desire to see Liston v Besmanoff 2?

 

Mathis wasn't a physical fighter, he was a fast handed boxer, an early Tony Tubbs. Bad comparison.

 

Yes Frazier has many more televised fights as he was a much more successful fighter and a dominant world champ- nobodies saying Williams is a better fighter. If all of Williams fights were on film irregardless of plenty of opponents being a lower pedigree we could at least see a bit more of the effect of Williams power.

 

Well rest assured no-ones accusing you of being the sharpest tool in the shed. Take note they are both fine posters too

You asked a guy for "
I would like an example from you of the hardest blow Williams landed.

All the other hard punchers have a hi light reel of knockouts to chose from. And from it they have chilling knockouts that are regarded as their best demonstration of hard hitting."

Everyone knows full well Williams has sweet FA on film to choose from.

Do you think he (a non great non champ) landed his hardest blows on his best opponents?

Do you think lesser opponents automatically have poor chins?

Do you think seeing the effect and non effect of his punches on lesser fighters (where he could more readily land) wouldn't have any value at all? If we had a lesser fighter on film taking punch after punch from Williams you'd be out posting it all over every boxing forum on the planet

Some of the strongest chinned fighters are lesser ones. There's also a strong chance some of them would have fought other noted punchers and a comparison might be able to be made.

If there were prizes given out for double standards, intentional slyness and obnoxiousness you would need a warehouse in which to store them.

 

Well this poll is winding down and Williams has more than double the votes of Smokin' Joe. For single punch power it looks like the ESB tribe has spoken.

 

You nailed it!

 

Joe Bugner was big and strong. Mathis was big and strong. Chuvalo was strong. Frazier had no problem with big and strong guys like Williams.

There is no saying how strong Liston was. He was strong. And for ten second moments Williams backed him up. What good did it do Williams? About as much good as it did for Tami Mauriello against Joe Louis.

 

What is the definition of power in boxing except punching power? Primo Carnera would possibly win against most in weight lifting or pulling a heavy weight about. Doesn't make him a power puncher at all.

My take is this definition of punching power is too abstracted from result to be at all realistic or worthwhile.

"Frazier was clearly physically weaker than not just Foreman but also Chuvalo"

If Foreman is stronger than all of them, so what? it doesn't say anything about Williams. Chuvalo being stronger would only prove, if true, that strength in the sense of lifting or pulling weights or wrestling strength has nothing much to do with punching power.

"Williams bulls Liston around quite a bit in the first round of their first fight."

We just disagree on what we see. I see Williams getting off first and hitting Liston who seems rather defensive and even passive at times in that first round. In the second round Liston started aggressively carrying the fight to Williams and basically took over. Liston was always willing to retreat in the face of punches, which actually speaks well of his defensive skills. He was never just a stationary target.

"And it really isn't worth the bother. Since who gives an F."

Why have a thread debating the issue and then insult someone who joins in because he isn't convinced about your consensus.

 

which makes it all the more alarming that without the evidence you think it okay to put the punches you have not seen ahead of Joe Frazier!

what kind of accomplishment is it To land a best punch on a lesser fighter? Who is celebrating the way Mike Tyson handled his first opponents over meaningful wins over Berbick etc? Or joe Louis etc. Who on earth is sorry the fight of George Foreman beating Terry sorrell isn't available so that it cannot eclipse his wins over Norton and Frazier???

Lesser opponents. The clue is in the title. You may as well glorify hitting a man tied to a chair.

i have seen the non effect Williams had on a 21lb lighter B level Billy Daniels. Why would seeing Williams crippling smaller guys with records of 0-0 Called Baby Booze (who never fought again) eclipse the fact that Williams really did not stand out against a 21lb lighter B list opponent during the best part of his career before he got shot?

Nobody else fought Baby Booze because he most likely was not a boxer. He never fought before and he never fought again. Sonny Liston fought Frankie Daniels right after Williams did. Sonny knocked the guy out in 2 minutes. Altogether Frankie took Williams 20 rounds. So Liston was leagues above Williams.

It is quite astonishing to say this of me when you are championing a guy (albeit a decent B lister) who has less impressive wins than Primo Carnera, a guy with even more muscles who actually beat rated fighters. This is an almighty double standard if ever there. Was one.