Who in history would beat Vitali Klitschko?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by archdeacon99, Nov 10, 2018.

  1. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

    Dec 16, 2012
    1) Vitali meets multiple definition of giant, even as you quoted a living being of great size & someone unusually large ppwerful.

    2) When I said he is not a giant in one of the senses, you seized upon that to deny he is a giant.
    I said correctly he meets some definitions of it & provided context: it is a straw man to act like I indicated "
    "legendary" size, or anything like that.

    3) Less than 1 in 1000 is rare. I never said it is rare in pro athletes-but it is the rare sport where pros average that tall.
    It IS a quite small percentage among any cohort of weightlifters.

    4) Then you puzzling segued into strength issues.
    You have been extremely ostentatious in avoidng not only adressing or seemingly checking out any of the natural strength potential references & websites I pointed out...

    But most glaringly, ignore all references & arguments to the massive effect of PEDs. Drugs. Steroids. Pre-cursor or pro-hormones. Insulin. IGF. Stacking other potentiators. And basically everything I argued.

    5) Which I seem to have to tell you again: getting somewhat or way stronger than me (not that I made this my life goal), is the usual WITH these substances.
    WITHOUT them, & without any physical gear like belts, straps, suits, etc...
    All reliable sources point to those numbers being close to the genetic limit of someone with around an average height & bone structure.

    You AVOID that the rough reality, again, is take a genetically average dude. Have him be lifetime clean (includre Creatine, which is taken unlike protein in unnatural/impossible to consume quantities). He can get around twice as strong as an average dude.
    Take someone with great genetic potential then rug him up to the gills effectively for years.
    Those folks approach 5 TIMES the average man in strength.

    6) I did provide strength standards. Both numbers & names such as Lyle McDonald & Casey Butts, Arragorn is another...
    You have failed to evaluate these at all.

    Bottom line is Vitali is very tall by any normal standards. But I grant you (& never denied) he is not that far above average for recent HWs. But the context was considering historical HWs.

    Some will never get really strong due to genetics & physical conditions-those who take it seriously & suddeed tend to have more potential.
    BUT what tends to be a bigger factor is PEDs.
    It is extremely common but uber-artifisical to import a cocktail of drugs-that includes taking up to a few TIMES what any man could ever produce with his own balls.

    That is why Ronnie Coleman & some others under 6' & at max 5% bodyfat could weight around 300 lbs.!
    When if they were natural for a lifetime, even with big bones & high genetic potential...
    At that level of leanness-& not stuffed with food & water-only a very few would reach 220.
  2. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

    Apr 28, 2020
    Again, within the context of the heavyweight division Vitali is not unusually large and powerful.

    You don't even know what you posted. You said height is the main definition. I provided you the real definition. Not your made up boxingforum24 crap.

    You're isolating the data between general population and athletes and then comparing the two as if they are drawing from the same data pool. This is a false equivalency. None of which decree that being 6'7 and 250 lbs is massive and completely giant like. 250 isn't huge for an athlete more specifically in the heavyweight division.

    Because they're all junk and you can't seem to get that through your head. Just because you link a source doesn't mean its automatically credible. Online "muscular potential calculators" are all junk. There is absolutely no way to accurately guage how strong or muscular someone can get. Do you get it now?

    This is all a red herring. I don't care at all about the prevalency of steroids abuse or whatever you're trying to put together. It has nothing to do with taking an athlete or anyone and getting them stronger. Nor does it provide any sort of justification as to why boxers shouldn't be lifting weights or even justify why you're 350 lb squat is your genetic potential. I was squatting that less than a year and a half into weight training at 180 lbs bw.

    This is absolute nonsense. Everyone can get much stronger than you and HAS gotten much stronger than you without drugs. Just go on the usapl website and look at their records/qualifying numbers. Do you honestly think you have to be on drugs to squat 405 or higher?

    There are no reliable sources because it is impossible to tell what someones genetic potential is.

    How strong is the average dude? I'd bet I'm already twice as strong as them and I'm not even an advanced lifter. The "average dude" doesn't even lift weights.

    It's so crazy that you literally make stuff up in your head and then run with it like you didn't.

    Okay get this lol I'm not going to search all over the internet for whatever you're trying to get across. The fact that you just won't say 3 numbers (one each for the squat, bench, and deadlift) is only showing that you refuse to answer the question because you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.
  3. red corner

    red corner Active Member banned Full Member

    Oct 9, 2021
    Without a cut or injury its complicated. He was never down from a punch and never down one the cards.
    NoNeck, cross_trainer and ikrasevic like this.
  4. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

    Dec 16, 2012
    1) Now you are putting own the whole forum as posting crap?
    I posted the literal definition. Best I can give you to be as fair as possible is while giant tends to mean more height than anything popularly, the definition is often listed as some variant or adgective of huge or large.
    Although no matter how big one is overall, without being tall who would ever be called a giant?
    But someone rail thin & really tall can be called a giant. That shows that height is at least "first among equals", as traitionally pictured, in what is meant by being a "giant".

    2) You are at least intellectually honest with your second point. Just mistaken in what I am claiming.
    Showing that 6'7" is rare in the general population is relevant because we are talking here about overall size.
    Just like how big someone is compared to a modern HW is relevant, fair point.
    But I am saying using both is most reasonable when talking in the vernacular about what it is in boxing.
    YES it Vitali is not a giant just compared to the average HW today. But it is only fair & reasonable to use both criteria when speaking loosely about giant...Those who used the term do not mean to be that literal.
    And 250 so lean is unusual even since Vitali's time. Not vanishingly rare, but somewhat more than average-even factoring in he is leaner than many HWs.

    3) I did NOT refuse to "say 3 numbers". I already gave you my numbers, & said I was near my max (absent any gear, internal or wearing any)-so you should easily see what an average dude can do-free of PEDs for a lifetime.
    You would not need to search far to find numbers like Bench press 300-350, Squat 400-450, Deadlift 450-500.
    Then you ADD some percentage if you allow what most casual lifters do not use: straps. Belts. Wraps.
    And somewhat more IF you allow various absurdly tight & flexible, rebounding bhench shirts or squat suits.

    Add a LARGER chunk more if you consider what I keep describing: long term, effective PED usage.

    4) It is extremely possible to know within a small egree of error what an average dude can lift.
    Now literally you can never know with metaphysical certitude what someone can achieve. There also could be an extremely rare incident where a small woman lifts a car off of her child due to adrenaline lol!

    But we have tons of studies that carefully control for what people do & what physical build they have.
    I believe Casey Butts used 10,000 lifters-his results have been critiqued as being possibly drug-infected, & know that a group of lifters *tend* to be self-selected for strength. But we can measure wrist & ankles *accurately * androgen levels & know what people might do in years of lifting. Actually done effectively maybe ~ 88% of potential realized in 3 years...

    5) You are CORRECT of course the average man does not lift-or do it intensely.
    But it is statistical cake walk to know that is why say the average man can do ~ a 160 lb. free weight bench press correctly. You average everyone of reasonale age in.

    6) You got some facts veritably WRONG. I did not say I id a 350 squat. I said 395, & without any wraps or suits.
    With them add a percentage. WIth a squat suit the largest percentage. Which is the only reason that the record squat is somewhat more than the best deadlift!
    With DRUGS add a whole lot more.

    7) Why would you say anything like these things are no justification for not lifting?
    I never suggested to not do weight training. It can be extremely valuable, did you mix me up with someone else, or just stereotype me?

    8) "Red Herring" to consider drugs/PEDs?!?
    No my friend, it is the whole POINT.
    I have been showing & telling what is a natural potential.
    You refuse to even look up, let alone address te details-say any name I gave you.
    To repeat endlessly that all calculators are crap without knowing anything about them OR even acknowledging the massive difference that putting tons of artificial male hormones & other potentiators & HGH in your body for years...

    Makes literally no sense whatsoever. :nusenuse: