Discussion in 'MMA Forum' started by Sports Shirt, Aug 15, 2023.
Fedor vs Jones in their respective primes without PEDs, Fedor, every day.
Hes also been knocked out cold by Kevin Randleman and Gabriel Gonzaga.
"Fedor without PEDs" lol.
He was in a Yakuza run promotion with zero drug testing ragdolling much bigger people and surviving being dumped on his head, then he weirdly avoided the UFC to instead fight in a bunch of dodgy fly by night promotions that folded within a few events, then as soon as he signed for a relatively stable American promotion he somehow became a bum in his early 30s getting KO'd in the first round etc. This was a theme with several top Pride fighters after Pride folded, a lot of them mysteriously got old overnight, wonder why.....
You exposed yourself as a casual here. DC gets no credit for that win due to the several flagrant eye pokes he landed which set that KO up, Stipe then beat his ass in the following 2 fights, which prove beyond any shadow of a doubt(even if you were to take the cheating out the equation) that Stipe is the better man. DC was never truly the #1 in any division he competed in, but you're making a claim that he's the GOAT? Lmao.
He didn't avoid UFC champions though. Fedor piled up their carcasses and built a house on them. Wierd how the moment these champs left the UFC and faced Fedor they got turned into bums getting KOd in a round or two
Fedor vs UFC champions
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Surely you're not including beating 90s relics like Coleman and Randleman who seemed downright archaic by the time Fedor beat them, or beating Mir 10 years after he was champ?
Yes he did beat big Tim, who was coming off of a loss, and had lost 2 of his last 3, including to 44 year old Randy (who himself was coming off a rd1 KO loss at LHW) then right after the Fedor fight he got KTFO in 10 seconds by 48 year old Ray Mercer for ****s sake.
Arlovski granted was coming off of wins, albeit not especially remarkable ones. Nobody was buying Tim or AA as the best HWs in the world at that point, lets put it that way. They were associated with whats often looked at as the worst era in UFC HW history.
I like how you're conveniently brushing aside that 18 months either side of the Fedor fight Cro Cop was getting brutally KO'd by journeymen, and has been put on the highlight reel multiple times in his MMA career by guys who arent very good. You're criticising Gane and Ngannous striking but imagine they had KO losses to 5'9 Randleman, Gonzaga or Brendan Schaub
They're the best the UFC had and Fedor swept them up like dirt. Fact is that the best heavies were outside the UFC at the time Fedor reigned over the scene. Right now the only reason guys like DC and JJ seem impressive to you is because the UFC HW scene is so damn thin.
An additional fact is that Fedor was never bust for PEDs whereas your hero Jones is a walking chemical factory. The dude doesn't need a night light for that 3am wee because his urine glows in the dark.
So basically, what you're saying is DC should get no credit for at 39 years old coming up from a lower weight class and stopping the supposed "best UFC HW ever" in the first round, because of eye pokes. But Stipe gets credit for the other two fights (one of which was a stoppage in rd4 of a fight he was losing badly) where DC was in his 40s, and you seemed to forget that Stipe eye poked the **** out of DC in the rubber match.
Big Tim, who had lost two his last 3 UFC fights, was the best the UFC had? Coleman was the best the UFC had in like 1996....
I'm not talking about 2005, i'm talking about that 2007-2010 period where Pride had folded and Fedor hadnt gone to the UFC. Where Brock and Mir and then later on Cain, JDS and Carwin were viewed as the top HWs in the UFC. Then outside of it the fight people wanted in 2009/10 when Fedor signed with Strikeforce was Reem, for some reason he never took that fight. We also never got Barnett and Kharitanov who were two top Pride guys who were also competing outside of the UFC for years after Pride died.
Yes Fedor never got busted for PEDs, he just dominated in a promotion with no drug testing and then somehow became an old man once he signed to a stable American promotion, much like Nog, Cro Cop, Wand and to an extent Shogun did.
Jones isnt my hero btw, I much preferred Fedor as a person and fighter but objectively his opposition wasnt as good, he wasnt as dominant and he burned out quicker. Therefore how can he be higher on the GOAT list?
Again keep ignoring that prime Cro Cop got one shotted on the feet by Kevin Randleman and Gabriel Gonzaga lol.
As a piece of entertainment? sure.
In terms of actual quality? 205 was stronger in Jones era than in Pride, and Jones beat most of the top 205'ers from Pride anyway, didnt he?
Good point. Since a guy that trained as hard as he did would have become like a hulk if he were on roids, its seems to me that he dominated an era of fighters that were on steroids themselves.
It's called "getting old" maybe you heard of it? Those guys had extremely long and gruelling fighting careers behind them.
Objectively his opposition was better, more varied and he was seen as unbeatable in his heyday.
Lewis got one shotted by Rahman, he must be rubbish lol
He "got old" at 33, as a HW no less. Just like Nog, Cro Cop and Wand seemed to magically get old out of nowhere in their early 30s once they went to the UFC. You really dont find that odd? to me it implies either that they were hardcore on PEDs in Japan, or that there was an element of smoke and mirrors to their careers.
One of the most obvious visible declines to Fedor was that his strength and durability seemed to nosedive. All of a sudden instead of ragdolling huge opponents and surviving being suplexed on his head hes getting treated like a child by Bigfoot (who DC brushed aside with ease soon after), struggling massively with Rogers (who Reem threw around like he was nothing soon after) and getting knocked out cold in a sloppy firefight by a 41 year old MW.
I suppose by "more varied" you mean the likes of 1-0 at the time circus sideshow Hong Man Choi (Fedor was in his 30th pro fight and unbeaten), fat freakshow Zuluzinho (Fedors 26th fight) and 0-1 pro wrestler Nagata (his 18th fight)?
Combined record of Fedors opponents during his unbeaten run at the time he fought them (excluding the TK "loss" and rematches) so 29 fights taken into account: 330-135
Combined record of Jones's opponents at the time he beat them (excluding the Hamill fight, DC 2 and because they were contentious Gus 1, Santos and Reyes) so 24 fights taken into account: 332-80
Then add in that Jones was fighting in the UFC 4 months after his first pro fight, and has been competing there for 15 years now. Meaning most of his opponents were also in the UFC winning at UFC level. A lot of Fedors opponents W/L records came from fighting an archaic level of competition in smaller orgs in Japan, often in the 90s when the sport was in its infancy.
I just think its funny to be criticising Gane and Ngannous striking and acting like Cro Cop was untouchable on the feet when CC got absolutely laid out by guys whose striking wasnt remotely near either of them. Again, imagine you saw Ngannou or Gane getting completely separated from their consciousness with one shot by a guy like Randleman, you telling me that wouldnt be an awful look?
You're just repeating the same old arguments. You think Fedor magically got old? I reply that UFC champions magically got old when he faced them.
Cro Cop is provably a better striker than Gane or Ngannou. They're not even on the same level. He started off as a boxer, moved to kickboxing, then to MMA. He acquitted himself on every level. Why did he lose? Everybody has off nights and gets old from the wear and tear of a long career. When those guys have 54 fights behind the belt at the level Cro Cop fought at, let's see what their careers look like.
To me the guys Jones fights are not on the same level. You say they were on PEDs? So Fedor was a guy without PEDs fighting roided monsters. Meanwhile we factually know Jones is chemically enhanced. The guy's a cheat, let's face it.