Who is greater pfp Hearns or Hagler?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cslb, Mar 22, 2023.



  1. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,594
    6,438
    Dec 17, 2018
    This is a good example of what I posted earlier in this thread about people having different interpretations on what "p4p" means.

    My intepretation on p4p is that it's how good a fighter is relative to their size. So if Hagler is the better fighter, i.e. better regardless of size, then he's the better p4p, imo.

    Your intepretation seems to be predicated on being better p4p requiring success at varying weights, or have I misunderstood?
     
    Pugguy likes this.
  2. tinman

    tinman VIP Member Full Member

    31,197
    23,920
    Feb 25, 2015
    I mean Hagler is literally better H2H.
     
    Pugguy and Greg Price99 like this.
  3. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,594
    6,438
    Dec 17, 2018
    Ah, sorry, I see.

    At MW, he clearly was. What about at LHW? Could Hagler have beaten the Hearns that beat Hill? How about at CW? Hearns could have filled out his 6ft 1ins, 78ins, CW-like frame, to 190lbs way before he actually did & whilst he was still prime. Could the 5ft 8.5ins Hagler, at whatever weight he decided to come in at, have won that fight?

    I'm not trying to be clever, I appreciate it's not reasonable to expect answers to those questions as we never saw Hagler above 160lbs. I'm trying to push my view that P4P should be considered as how good fighters are relative to their size (which can vary over the course of their careers). As counter-intuitive as this sounds, it's reasonable to argue that the smaller framed Hagler had a size advantage over Hearns at MW, because the degree to which he was naturally thicker set exceeded the degree to which Tommy's frame was bigger. However, trust me, at CW Hearns would have had a substantial size advantage, because the ultimate capacity of his frame when filled out, vastly exceeded that of Hagler's.

    So Hagler was better H2H at 160lbs? Yes, no question. Was Hagler better H2H if there was no weight limit & each fighter had time to prepare their bodies to fight to the highest level possible regardless of weight? I'm not so sure. Imo, the very essence of who is the better P4P is cut through this and ask who is the better, relative to their size.
     
    Freddy Benson., Entaowed and cslb like this.
  4. Eddie Ezzard

    Eddie Ezzard Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,308
    4,754
    Jan 19, 2016
    Might have been good banterm.

    Yes? No?

    It's a no. Taxi for Ezzard.
     
    Greg Price99 likes this.
  5. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

    48,720
    13,051
    Jul 19, 2004
    For what it's worth, Hearns edged it out at #25 to Marvin's #26 by a mere 2 points in the Survey here from a few years back.

    This content is protected
     
    alangjk, cslb, Greg Price99 and 3 others like this.
  6. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

    11,679
    19,274
    Aug 22, 2021
    It seems that the GREAT Ray Robinson was the primary catalyst for the introduction of the P4P concept. He couldn't be rated "better" than say, Joe Louis, in H2H terms = literally being able to beat The Bomber. P4P allowed and compensated for the size difference in order to be able to rate Ray as the more skilled fighter with the greater attributes in relative terms.

    So, at least initially, it seems it had nothing to do with achievements over multiple divisions - though Ray also had that claim under his belt. It really just allowed for comparison of skill sets/relative attributes between fighters from different weight classes.

    Take Duran - another multi division conqueror. Let's say his "best" weight division was Lightweight, fighting at his most natural and optimal weight. Imo, this would be exactly where Duran would/should receive his absolute highest P4P rating. Without a moving an inch, ounce or pound, that's his BEST possible P4P rating. Ironically, gaining weight and moving up through the divisions, though impressive and periodic successes notwithstanding, could only serve to reduce Duran's P4P attributes.

    Given that perspective, Hagler's best weight and associated greatest p4p attributes were at 160 lbs = MW. Despite Tommy's praiseworthy traverse and degrees of success through multiple weight divisions, in any one of those given division, could Tommy be rated as a greater p4p fighter than Marvin was at 160 lbs = MW? I would say that the answer is probably no.
     
  7. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

    48,720
    13,051
    Jul 19, 2004
    Extremely well put. Over praise for weight-jumping is something I think has largely (or at least somewhat) perverted the original intended meaning of P4P.

    Ergo, just because Hagler was always a middleweight, all things being equal makes no difference when rating his skills on a P4P basis. Same with rating career heavyweights in a P4P sense. Heavyweights generally tend to be inherently penalized on this front, with notable exceptions being Ali and Louis. But for me, the same mindset should apply. Spending a career in a single weight class shouldn't automatically penalize a boxer's standing, especially if one proved to be the dominant force in said division for a considerable stretch.
     
  8. Jel

    Jel Obsessive list maker Full Member

    7,452
    12,171
    Oct 20, 2017
    Great posts both and I fully agree.
     
    Greg Price99, Pugguy and Rumsfeld like this.
  9. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

    48,845
    36,222
    Apr 27, 2005
    :lol:

    Great to have you posting in here Greg.
     
    Jel, Greg Price99 and Rumsfeld like this.
  10. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

    48,845
    36,222
    Apr 27, 2005
    All great points.
     
  11. Freddy Benson.

    Freddy Benson. Active Member Full Member

    558
    771
    Jan 14, 2022
    A really good discussion and interesting thread. Informative, well expressed and nice to see people interacting with what other posters actually said. Thanks to all for contributing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2023
    Pugguy and Eddie Ezzard like this.
  12. Eddie Ezzard

    Eddie Ezzard Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,308
    4,754
    Jan 19, 2016
    Agreed. The whole P4P debate, if we bother to have it, should spend all energy on judging the effectiveness of a fighter's boxing skillset, not his ability to diet.
     
    Pugguy likes this.
  13. Eddie Ezzard

    Eddie Ezzard Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,308
    4,754
    Jan 19, 2016
    Nice work Freddie. You've had some good success early doors in your posting here in instigating lively and informed debate among us on threads that seem quite new without being too niche. Posters seem to have respected one another too, without the aggression that other less original threads often descend into. Like I say, good work. Welcome.
     
  14. Saad54

    Saad54 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,533
    6,061
    Dec 10, 2014
  15. Freddy Benson.

    Freddy Benson. Active Member Full Member

    558
    771
    Jan 14, 2022
    Thanks that's nice of you to say. Thanks for the welcome.
     
    Eddie Ezzard, Pugguy and Greg Price99 like this.