Who is the best modern heavyweight (90s and onward) that you would pick Rocky Marciano to beat?

Rocky was about 200 pounds out of the ring. That's small for a heavyweight. Tyson was 240 (sometimes more) outside the ring. Tua was heavier still. Any way you slice it, Rocky was a smaller man than these guys. Tyson at 14 was bigger than Marciano.
Tua and Tyson didn't get big-they were big, and yet, at least in Tyson's case, STILL on the small side for a modern-day heavyweight.
There are lots of cruiserweights significantly bigger than Rocky, naturally.

Putting on weight isn't the issue. It's on what kind of frame you put that muscle (or fat) on. Spinks, Moorer, Holyfield all gained muscle mass, but they were all around 6'2" with long levers and naturally athletic.
All were naturally bigger than Marciano. I saw a pic of Gerald McLennan standing with Tyson between fights; guy was big. Probably close to 200 himself back then. And he was in decent shape.
Yes, Rocky could have put on some size, could have maybe gotten a bit more explosive, but he'd still be the smaller man in the ring, usually by a large margin, pretty much every single time.
He's not Holyfield. He doesn't have the same physical tools.
He doesn't have Toney's defensive acumen.
A fairer question to ask is how he would fare against modern cruiserweights, most of whom are naturally bigger than Rocky too, but at least not huge men.

 

If Rocky dared to put on 10lb your chiseled darling would turn into a fat bumbo. He wouldn’t be that great fighter you know, he would be a terrible fighter, so don’t even think about you hear me?

 

Actually he was closer to 215 then 200. I understand what your saying I just disagree. Marciano was also a natural athlete. He also was phenomenal defensively. Something many people don’t know. Compustat has him better defensively then even Tyson and Frazier who were also well defensively. If weight is your only issue it’s a bad issue to have. Even smaller james Toney was able to pack the pounds and compete. Would he be as successful? I think he would be. He was more skilled then say a Tua (better at closing off the ring, defensively, feigning etc) and he made it pretty far. Would he beat a Lewis or Wlad? Idk. Could his chin take shots from those men? I think it’s a fair question but not one that should be outright dismissed as there is no proof he could t.

 

The strange thing here is that some posters have to resort to 'super Marciano' in order for him to be in the argument against the big guys today.
It's an unconscious acknowledgement to the fact that at 180 lbs. or so, he just wasn't big enough.
It's an unusual argument that size doesn't matter, but if we blow up fighter x to a certain size, he's more effective now. The irony isn't lost on me.
Marciano was never 'phenomenal' defensively. Good Lord, who has ever said that? Yeah, he could be cute sometimes and he could parry, block and duck, but phenomenal?
Come on now. That's nonsense and I'm surprised you have to resort to utter fancy like this. To hell with stats. Stats can be twisted and turned to prove almost anything. Context is important.
James Toney was able to compete at heavyweight because he truly WAS phenomenal defensively. And yes, he 'competed', in that he won some, lost some against some decent fighters.
And what do you mean 'even James Toney'?
It's pretty rare for a smaller guy to compete against the big boys. And Toney is one of the best fighters over the last 30 years or so. (Yet, he was only decent at heavyweight... should tell you something.)
Weight is not my only issue. It's about size overall.
It's one of the most fundamental questions when a smaller guy moves up.
It is the number one issue ANY trainer would have (and has had) if their guy was moving to heavyweight.

Right now, when Usyk moved up, the very first questions everyone asked is if he could take a heavyweight punch, and if his own punch could hurt a heavyweight.
Not about skill. Not about talent.
These concerns are grounded in reality and with good reason.

I really don't think you quite appreciate the significant difference simply being bigger makes. (Well actually you do, because you keep trying to justify Marciano's walk around weight, and the silly 'what if' if he was heavier with modern training, nutrition etc.)
When Holyfield fought Foreman, he admitted that George's size made things difficult. He couldn't push George, couldn't maneuver inside, couldn't do much against George at all physically. Evander tired more quickly than he imagined.
(This was Holyfield at 208 pounds, who didn't fight a particularly physical fight against George.)
Marciano had three things (in a physical sense) going for him. A strong punch. A good chin. A great engine.
All three would be diminished against a modern heavyweight, regardless of what weight you want Marciano to come in at.

On top of that, he's still short. He's still not fast. He's still gonna cut. He still doesn't have any option but to come forward to land punches.
The book on how to beat him would be out very quickly.

Here's a bit of a real-world anecdotal story.
Until recently, I participated in a combat sport that involves pretty much everything. Punching, kicking, wrestling... the lot. We wear armour so thankfully it doesn't really hurt.
There are no weight classes. Anyone can fight anyone, regardless of size.

Guys smaller than me are a cinch. I can push them into corners, turn them around, keep them off-balance, push their heads down... what have you. Yes, they're nippy and can move, but catch them and they struggle. I can immediately turn my size advantage against them.
Guys my size, as expected, is a pretty much even fight. Skill and conditioning determines the winner.
Guys bigger than me? Now I have to change my style and NOT get physical. Their pure size is too much. They're too strong.
We have a kid who's 6" 6' and 240 pounds. Fighting him is exhausting. I can't get inside and he overpowers me when I try. His long arms just push me away, or pull me down or strikes me when I can't hit him back. He uses his height and weight to bully me.
On occasion when I fight smart, I can give him a go... for a while. But it's always downhill fast when he catches up with me or I make him angry.

Size always matters. Especially when there is a big, big size difference.
Not saying you are on of these people, but there are too many armchair warriors that ignore basic physics, who muddy the waters with silly arguments, likely because they have no real-world experience or common sense to know better.
Anyway, that's that from me. No point going any further with it.

 

Post of the year right there buddy!

 

@mods: With a click on the Classics, can we pop that up as a Notification?

Give RBV no chance. Up the quality of boxing debate. Thanks.

 

My issue isn’t actually having Marciano gain weight as it is so much to have access to modern work out methods which would make him stronger and more explosive. Do
You deny this? Just as if you took Anthony Joshua and put him in a time machine he prob weighs 200 pounds and you never hear of him. Marciano in the future probably weighs something different. People weigh more because they can. And yes if you don’t lose things like speed and stamina of course gaining weight for positioning is important today. Back then you’d lose to much.
Having actual proof that Marcianos defense was amazing is kind of important and yes I have that. You only have a biased opinion. Judging what Is excellent defense and what is not is simply based on how often one is hit. Even if one person faced slightly better competition over a career it means little on the average of a career. And the FACT is Marciano had better defense then most greats. Almost all the greats. This isn’t me hyping him up it’s simply compustats. Like them hate them they’re the only stats we have.
as someone who claims to fight you should know a 200 pounder can hit a lot harder then a 260 pounder. Size isn’t as relevant there. Wether or not you got tired is irrelevant. Marcianos average opponent was several inches taller then him and weighed ten pounds more then him. He didn’t have a stamina issue. Try running more and eating blueberries. If small men were so disadvantaged men like Marciano, Frazier, Tua, Tyson, Bivins, etc would not have been able to compete. If you’re small you learn to fight small which also can be an advantage if you know how to fight small which they did (for the record Id rather be tall it is an advantage but it’s not the end all be all boxing had a world of factors to consider).

 

***** Must move those goalposts *****

 

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: See the Perceptual Disturbance its causing?? God damn what else has to happen until you guys take RBV serious ???

 

When I said I was aware of Shkor's record that included his record going into the Marciano fight. I count veteran journeymen as decent opponents. They are not there to win or even be cans, but put up resistance.

Shkor was stopped only 4 times in 19 losses. He could be a very durable opponent. Again I haven't seen Evander or Holmes stop anyone with ease. You shifted the goal post to "Inside 5 rounds" which isn't exactly the same as "KO with ease."

I find this "KO with ease" talk to be hyperbolic, debate killing, and greatly underestimating the trouble a large smothering opponent could cause anyone. It's just not realistic.

 

Yet Shkor beat rated heavyweights, so just more hyperbolic catch phrases that mean nothing.

It's not my argument for Marciano's power. I'm replying to what you chose to debate me on.

But Your opinion of Shkor doesn't change the fact Marciano scored a KO over a 6'5" 220 lb opponent. You were factually incorrect in your initial statement Marciano only beat one opponent over 200 lbs. You since added the subjective "decent" qualifier which of course will lead to a split in opinion.

Shkor lost lots of fights but might have fought something like half his opponent list against contenders (Bivins, Baksi, Walcott, Sheppard...etc), scored the odd upset, and was a sought after tune up/exhibition opponent to do rounds with. I count that as "decent." A Ferguson of his time.

 

This going to be wordy, but it's all I have to say on the matter. It's my opinion and I don't expect it to sway anyone who already made up their mind. We all have the same evidence, this is my spin on it.

He's the most remarkable pound for pound puncher I've seen. He doesn't hurt heavier men the same way Holyfield, Moore, Langford, or Charles did with angles, sneaky accurate punches and combos, he did it with blunt trauma. His opponents on film are often braced for his power and still get badly hurt. Often just glancing punches or arm punches with his feet barely set seemed to still carry fight changing power against fresh looking opponents.

He could produce tremendous power with very little space or leverage. Everywhere he landed a punch seemed to hurt his opponent, evading his punches completely seemed to be the most effective route which is hard to do over the course of a fight and trying to smother him proved suicidal.

Regarding his power carrying up against heavier men. At the end of the day, power is just physics, and Marciano demonstrated that his power could move men anywhere from 20-30+ lbs heavier. I don't have any doubt he could hurt men of this size because he did. Moving a 210 or 220 lb man with your punches, is moving a 210 or 220 lb man with your punches. That's that. Quality of the opponent isn't really going to change that. Maybe he'd have a harder time finding such an opponent..but that's a different matter.

I'm aware Joe Louis was a shadow of his former self, in fact, I'd favor a prime Louis to beat the Rock, but at the end of the day, I'm still impressed by Marciano bullying a man that was 30 some pounds heavier in lean muscle, and moving him with the blunt force of his punches. Just because say....a 210 lb fighter is a master prime boxer compared to that version of Joe Louis, doesn't mean the Rock's punches will now just bounce off him.

I personally feel the Rock could binge on Taco Bell, grow tits, and still have threatening power in the HW division. We've seen Michael Moorer...who I don't feel was remotely as devastating against his similar sized peers as Rock's power, eat his way to over 200 lbs and still pack a wallop against the big boys. Andy Ruiz jr's natural fighting ability and power has been effective despite being a lard ass.

Do I think he would make a good modern Heavyweight? God No. Not because his power wouldn't carry up. I just can't see a scenario where he would be okay going up against 6'4-6'9" 220-250 lb men every night when there are more lucrative options these days and no same day weigh in. I've said this in other threads, but I feel the Rock could leave it all in the ring and beat anyone on a special night he worked for, could he do this consistently? Absolutely not. He'd break down from the punishment he'd have to take from heavier men over and over again to land his power. That just isn't a recipe for a long term success, he had a very short career in his own time and was already breaking down by the time he won the title, despite staying in great shape with long breaks between fights.

Regardless, if there is one thing I don't doubt about the Rock. It's his ability to punch.

 

um why did you bump a near month old thread??