Who is the better of the two and by how much-Sonny or George?

Hmm....didn't look fat to me in that fight.I wouldn't call any man who achieves any status in boxing a ' bum '.
You stated that Sonny never defeated any ' good ' fighters over 200 lbs.I wasn't calling these guys great
but merely pointing out they were good fighters at 200 lbs plus.

 

Not a single of them is a great, and not even close to Frazier,Norton, Lyle, Chuvalo, Cooney league.

I still think, he never beat fighter of Norton/Frazier calibre.

 

Eddie would be too slick for him.

 

Until he get KOed...George isn't Ingemar or Frazier and they beat Machen like a drum.

Liston was frustrated because he didn't have the game for inside fighting and wrestling which wouldn't be the case with Foreman.

 

I would say Cleveland Williams was on a par with Gerry Cooney,Ron Lyle or George Chuvalo.
I'm not disputing that Joe Frazier is an ATG so yes it's fair to say that Sonny never beat anybody as
formidable as Smokin' Joe.However while Ken Norton was an outstanding fighter I would say Floyd Patterson
would have a decent chance of beating him.

 

It's funny. Machen survived Sonny by parrying the jab, ducking and holding. Young survived Foreman in a very similar way.
Machen outpoints big George.

 

Cooney went almost distance with Holmes, Lyle and Chuvalo did better against Ali than against Williams.

So no, Williams was not good as them.

 

Young is bigger man and played his version of rope a dope.

 

Floyd would put good fight first couple of rounds until he get stopped.

 

Young parried the heavy jab, slipped underneath the following right, closed in, clinched, threw punches inside until they were separated, rinse and repeat.
Machen used very similar tactics, and he was big enough to survive Liston.

 

Machen didn't box as much as Young, he wrestle and hold and that woupd be very bad tactic against Foreman.

 

People love bringing up Cooney as if it’s a big win for George. It’s not. Cooney had one fight in 3 years a loss to a blown up light heavy before fighting George and only 2 fights in nearly six years before fighting George, the other being a 1 round win over Eddie Gregg. Conversely George was into the 19th fight of his comeback. I liked prime Cooney he was a good fighter but the the version that fought George was washed up, and Rusty. You’re not beating a very active Foreman having fought about 6 rounds of boxing in 6 years. People that put Cooney in Foreman’s top 5 wins really shows how much lack of depth Foreman’s resume truly has.

 

Depends if you’re accepting of the notion Young would beat pre-Zaire Foreman or not. I’m not, personally.

 

I agree completely about Cooney’s state, but you have drastically underplayed how far past his best Foreman was. He was several years older than Cooney & slower than molasses. He had a stronger mindset & better composure in his corner not primarily because he was less ring-rusted, but simply because he was a better fighter.

Cooney was about eight or nine years removed from his prime - Foreman, more than fifteen years past his. I know that isn’t the only factor here, but it’s a big one.

 

Total rubbish!
Martin's weights for his previous 6 fights.
198
204
202
200
199
199
Martin scaled exactly the same for his fight with Thad Spencer[199lbs] as he did a year and a half later to fight Liston, and he wasn't fat for either fight! I was ringside at the Albert Hall when he beat Spencer and it was the Fight Of The Year

Martin had 36 fights, for half of them he weighed over190lbs.

Liston v Martin
Leotis Martin vs Sonny Liston ABC’s Wide World of Sports 1969 (1080p 60fps) (youtube.com)
Do stop making up all these lies!