Who is the higher ATG - Leonard or Duran

They both topten yeah , but Duran is definitly higher and you know it , you definitly know it , Duran lost to Hagler at 160 and Hearns at 154 and the third Leonard fight ? I know your not even gna use that as an argument , i cant even believe your using any of this. He was the greatest 135-pounder in the opinion of almost every1 , that puts him ahead of Leonard, Gans, Sweetpea, Ortiz, Williams. Beat Leonard past his own best weight and at Leonard's , destroyed fighters like Palomino and Cuevas who were also at a considerable natural weight advantage. The DeJesus trilogy is the stuff of legends of the highest order.

And if h2h comes into it , i do believe that Roberto Duran's style in his prime was as close to a perfect fighter as is possible. The absolute best blend of offense and defense ever to be witnessed in a boxing ring. There have been many great defensive fighters who can stand right in front of a guy and dodge punches (Toney, Sweetpea etc.) and counter , but Duran would just walk into a guy standing upright , they'd both throw like a 5-punch combo , and only Duran's would land , and im not talking pitty-pat counters , he would finish the fight with such a move. Roerto Duran is one of the very best of the elite fighters in p4p history.

I never discredited Leonard , all im saying is that it is as close to a lock as can be that HE IS HIGHER IN THE ATG P4P LIST than Leonard

 

I have him one space higher, wouldn't argue with someone who had Leonard ahead though.

Why not? His LW career, with wins over Buchanan and Dejesus, doesn't come close to Leonard's overall career, therefore his accomplishments at higher weights have to come into play, and the fact that he lost to every great fighter he faced doesn't help either.

He is considered as is because of his success at higher weights I believe. He was a dominant LW, but his resume at the weight is definitely not the best. Benny Leonard, at LW exclusively, certainly deserves to be ranked higher in an ATG list, though perhaps not head to head. I have him top 5, probably #3, behind Leonard and Gans.

The fights you mentioned, along with Barkley and Moore, are his body of work at higher weights, as well as all the losses. Leonard's work at higher weights is far better. Duran is in the euqation(and possibly ahead) because of the fact that he was a natural LW and had a great career there. Leonard's top wins are still easily better than Duran's, his career is just not as stacked.

I believe a slick boxer like Whitaker, Benitez, etc were always a style problem for him, being as they were the only fighter he struggled with at any weight around his prime(aside from Hearns). He beat big punchers and brawlers like Barkley even at 160, but got handled by a guy like Benitez at 154, closer to his prime. I think his machismo would work against him in fights like these.

He chose when to do that, he could also get caught quite a bit. He seemed to have offensive and defensive modes. There were times when he would make a great defensive play and turn it into offense, which would put you in disbelief, but a lot of the time he was content to just bang it out, taking shots as well. Either way, I will not dispute the point too greatly.

Probably.

Well, I think you underrate Leonard then. I think you can easily make the case for either, though I happen to rate Duran slightly higher. I don't think it's a lock as some do though, that is all I'm saying.

 

This is my favorite part.

 

The only reason im saying it is a lock is because i think so highly of Duran , i would never underestimate such a great Leonard .

And , his defence and offense happened at the same time , once he had fully learned his trade , it was even happening in the Buchannan fight.

The great fighters he lost to , he was never in his absolute prime against any of them. Do you think if they were both lightweights that Beniitez could have handled him like that ? You will probably say yes for the sake of the debate , but i really dont think so. Anyway , you have basically agreed with the point i made , you have Duran ahead.

Leonard and Duran are in the same league and group in the p4p atg rankings , i just dont see an argument for Leonard being actually higher than Duran. I may have took it a bit too far before , its a sensitive subject! My argument stands though

 

Possibly right though

 

both in my top 5 all time list. Durans status as GOAT at his natural weight has him slightly ahead in my opinion.

Leonard's record looks unquestionable on paper, but watch tapes of the fights, I personally think he lost against Hagler and in the second Hearns fight. His resume would certainly look less spectacular if without these two 'wins'.

 

The resident ****** throws his two cents in. Now he's broke...

 

shane mosley?

 

I dont think that Mayweather is greater than either personally , but Mayweather is certainly a great, great fighter , i think the reason why people dont wanna put him at this atg level is because he is active, and this is the very highest level , Floyd is great though

 

Please tell me how.

 

He hasnt fought the level of competition of Duran and SRL. And now that he has a chance to do so, he is fighting DLH again.

Thats not greatness.

 

I think the point that sweetpea made was that Duran beat Leonard at Leonard's weight , and Leonard should have beaten an atg 135pounder when he is an atg 147pounder. The third fight means nothin in terms of p4p atg history , dont need to explain that

 

His resume is nowhere near the other greats. His best wins are an old De La Hoya, Hatton, and Corrales. Two of them were possibly top 10 P4P at the time. Otherwise he has wins over Castillo(who's more known for how well he did against Floyd than anything, and Floyd arguably lost the first fight) and inconsistent guys like Judah, and a bunch of B and C level fighters.

His resume is good, not great. He has no ATG's other than De La Hoya, who was well past his prime. If he fights and beats Cotto and it will honestly raise him a good deal IMO, as it will be his toughest assignment to date by far.

 

Duran was past his prime when he fought Benitez, Hagler, and Hearns. He was at least two weights above his natural weight, probably three, when fighting them. It's arguable that Duran was still in his prime when he fought Leonard over the first two fights. I would say his prime ended after Montreal.

Duran had Hagler like dominance at lightweight, although slightly lacking in the same quality of oppostion. Over 7 years at the top, and beat the best the division had to offer. The marquee fights eluded him as the lightweight division never had superstars, hence the reason Duran eventually moved up to fight Leonard. Duran then moved up and won titles in three more divisions after reigning at lightweight. You'll not find many fighters who were champions for over 7 years, then moved up and won titles in three more divisions. I can't think of any at all.

Duran at number 5 isn't out of the question. The Ring magazine had him at 5 or 6 in their "greatest fighters of the last 80 years".