Who is the man at heavy...Usyk or Fury?

Wilder was No.1 ranked (aside from Fury) in fight 2, No.3 ranked in fight 3 and Whyte was No.4 ranked after that, with Usyk and AJ having two fights in between then, thus being tied up. You omitted Whyte in one of your posts because it's an inconvenient fact that Fury schooled and one-punched the officially 5th ranked HW in the world, 4th excluding himself, Whyte being unable to land a meaningful punch over 6 rounds. Before the fight there were many threads speculating whether Fury would duck this "dangerous top contender" and pretty much everyone would have agreed that if Fury took Whyte apart, it would be a good legacy win (not a great win by any means contrary to Mitch but good in underlining Fury's supremacy over all the other guys who've fought Whyte, none of whom had an easy night).

Fury fought Wilder in October last year, Whyte in April, will fight Chisora in December and is slated to fight Usyk next March, when Usyk has recovered from his supposed injuries, spent time with his family or whatever. Fury might well be the most active significant heavyweight in the sport right now, possibly excluding Ali Demirezen if you consider him to be significant. Inactivity is a sporting-wide malady and Fury is very far from being the worst offender.

The only relevant other guy right now in determining supremacy is Usyk, who holds three alphabet trinkets that Fury won from the lineal king and never lost in the ring, not some random heavyweight who will supposedly be next guy Fury's ducking if/when he beats Usyk.

 

Joshua losing to fat Andy precludes the assumption that he's the No.2 non-ex-cruiser HW of this era. And if Wilder destroys fat Andy as he likely will if Andy doesn't run off to fight Spong in Mexico, Joshua's claim to be 2nd/3rd will become even flimsier. At some point he'll have to fight Fury or Wilder or Joyce if he sticks around, then we'll see what's what.

Usyk beating a much bigger unified titlist in Joshua x2 is why he's higher in the P4P rankings than Fury. But he's not generally considered "the man" at heavyweight and nor should he be, having never beaten a lineal champion and only fought a top 3 HW twice to Fury's four times, with their only mutual opponent giving Usyk a much harder time.

Joshua has fought two genuine champions in Wlad home/A-side and Usyk x2 home/A-side and went 1-2. The Martin's, Parker's, Ruiz's and WBA regular holders don't count.

Wilder has fought one genuine champion in Fury x3 home/A-side and went 0-2-1. Stiverne and Liakhovich don't count.

Chisora got a lot of big fights (and exposed many of AJ's best opponents, hilariously) because he was seen as an easy target as the B-side with unexceptional power and skill, Ortiz by contrast was regarded very differently:

"That guy [Ortiz] is a nightmare, man. He's like the mini Mike Tyson southpaw. How do you deal with that?" - Chisora

Ortiz turned pro at 30/31 after defecting from Cuba, didn't have wealthy backers, was horribly mismanaged between the impressive Page and Jennings wins and was heavily avoided. The version Wilder fought first time was certainly better than Ruiz, Whyte, Parker and Pulev and even the Ortiz of 3 years ago would have obviously beaten Ruiz, who was clearly ducking Ortiz for years (ditto Whyte). Ortiz also won the Pan-American games, which is not a 1st rate international tournament but still far better than anything Ruiz or Parker won as amateurs.

How many actual live opponents has Joshua fought?

Whyte (puncher, determined)
Wlad (big puncher, big, very skilled, determined)
Povetkin (puncher, skilled, determined)
Ruiz 1 (NOMAS7 loss)
Usyk x2 (decision losses)

Parker was not live: he was unable to dominate Takam on the cards as Joshua did and he is famously tame and featherfisted. Further, he had a bodyguard referee against him who was allowing Joshua to take rests whenever he needed them. Parker didn't win more than 1-2 rounds on the official corrupt cards! He wasn't winning in 10 attempts and maybe not 100.

Ruiz 2 was not live: 284 lbs after training in Taco Bell and grossly underestimating 236 lbs Joshua's ability to run a marathon in a big Saudi ring. Not a puncher, just looked like one because he nailed Joshua's temple in a wild exchange first time.

Pulev was not live: featherfisted pointfighter, last impressive performance was Hughie 2 years prior and 13 months inactive, already KO'd cold by Wlad when he was fresh and undefeated. Pulev was NEVER winning a decision in Britain, or knocking AJ out with his lack of front foot ability.

How many live opponents has Wilder fought?

Stiverne 1 (puncher, strong-chinned, determined)
Duhaupas (strong-chinned, big, determined)
Ortiz 1 (puncher, skilled, southpaw, determined)
Fury x3 (draw, KO losses)

Contrary to popular belief, Wilder's pointfighter opponents barring Fury were not live. Ortiz 2 was always going to eat a bomb if he tried to cautiously box for 36 minutes, ditto the far less capable Szpilka and Washington.

So by my count Joshua's record against live opponents is 3-3, Wilder's is 3-2-1.

You want to spin it as Joshua beating this murderers row and Wilder fighting total no-hopers (and have only selectively critiqued Wilder's A-side advantages here but neglected AJ's). But in truth, Joshua would likely have more than his current three losses if he'd fought Wilder's opponents: Wilder hasn't lost to a fat Andy, let alone QUIT, whereas Joshua could have very conceivably lost to Stiverne or Ortiz, in addition to Fury x3.

Wilder has more determination and power than Joshua as well as more speed, toughness, stamina (when lighter) height and reach. He is a considerably more dangerous fighter, despite possibly being a lesser pointfighter (and the KD's greatly compensate for that, not to mention the KO's, which is what he's going for primarily).

 

If you don't want to read or reply then don't read or reply, or put me on ignore.

 

[QUOTE="Redbeard7, post: 22001676,

I don't think Usyk is even Furys biggest threat frankly. He just doesn't seem like a good stylistic matchup. I think guys like Joyce Bakole Jalolov etc are a bigger problem. Massive guys with huge power. I think the young up and comers are a bigger threat than the veterans

 

I don't think ratings are very useful either given the top guys don't generally face each and fans use guesswork. I would have probably put Whyte around 9 or 10 ability wise against Fury and behind
Usyk
Fury
Joshua
Wilder
Dubois
Bakole
Jared Anderson

Some of these guys have pretty unimpressive resumes but I would still pick them over Whyte

Frank Sanchez might also beat Whyte

 

The sick puppy gets quite enraged by @navigator for some reason. He should seek help.

Yes, Jennings was stopped in the 12th round of a competitive and close bout with an ascendant Rivas years after Ortiz had stopped him inside seven rounds when he was coming off a creditable tilt at Klitschko's championship.

Contenders rise, contenders fall, "columnated ruins domino", "what is up the canyon will even eventually come down", welcome to boxing.

With that said, it's perhaps worth noting that Jennings is still the only man to endure the modern championship distance with Joe Joyce.

There was an industry-wide clamor for Joshua and Wilder to meet. That includes everyone from fans to pundits to journalists to their fellow professionals, but that means nothing because you say they were all wrong? And that seems like an airtight argument to you, I suppose?

Let's you and I remind ourselves what your original argument was here, i.e. that a prime Deontay Wilder is equivalent to the green Dubois that Joe Joyce jabbed into submission.

Here we go again. The world awaits Fury-Usyk, but he should be facing the unrated likes of Bakole and Jalolov because Cojimar from Palookaville says so?

I will give you something for Joyce (quoted from over a year ago);

But I do not agree that Fury is unlikely to ever fight him.

Painterly Joe is now a well-known quantity whom Warren identified as being in Fury's future plans just last week.

As Joyce's profile is now climbing fast, Fury-Joyce following on from Fury-Usyk would make perfect sense, being a matchup that has great potential for marketing to the British audience.

Bakole and Jalolov are invisible to the public, and none of the top guys has any reason to box them at this point in time, regardless of your wayward belief that they represent Kryptonite to Fury. Maybe one or both of them can get themselves into a mandatory spot like Fury had to do all those years ago, but, until then...

 

Hello again, you inferior little man.

Did you buck up the courage to edit the opening post of your thread yet?

 

We find out who the man is when they fight in the next 5 months or so

 

Usyk is a fast cruiser like Cunningham and a tough, tenacious southpaw like Wallin but better than both. So if anyone is a tough stylistic matchup for Fury on paper, it's Usyk. Fury's already proved he's able to dominate long-reigning champions who are 6'5+ with massive power, and on the road. Usyk's also far more proven than the Joyce's, Bakole's and Jalolov's, and has the other belts. If Fury beats Usyk and then genuinely retires, this era is over and a new one begins.