Who is the more accomplished heavyweight: Frazier or Liston?

Who is the more accomplished HW?

Frazier

 

I say Frazier beat better fighters.

 

Williams, Machen, Folley, Valdez were better than Bonavena, Quarry, Chuvalo, Ellis.

 

But who is close to Ali? No one. Frazier beat Ali once and gave him a heck of a tough fight in a loss. Liston did not do nearly as well vs Ali.

Of the above fighters you mentioned isn't Quarry ahead of Williams, Folley, Machen and Vladez? I think he is.

I think Liston is higher head to head, but Frazier is more accomplished. The question was who is more accomplished.

 

Liston accomplished more. He beat Better fighters, dominated his top opposition far more, beat better punchers, beat better competition early in his career,

 

A old washed up machen beat quarry. Think about that one.

 

I saw a picture of Sonny Liston in the book about him. He was sitting next to whoever was President at the time. Sonny's hands were significantly bigger than his. Big ol' fists, he had.

 

I think Liston was more accomplished. Outside of Ali liston had the better wins and patterson certainly was a great fighter, more importantly liston dominated his top opposition far more, beat better punchers, beat better competition early in his career,

 

"Outside of Ali," isn't the reality. This was not only the greatest win of Frazier's career, but possibly the greatest victory that any champion can ever claim. That was a classic fight, and a win that no other champion has matched.

Frazier busting up Quarry twice, Ellis twice, Bonavena Twice, and being one of only two men to ever stop Goerge Chuvalo is pretty damn dominant if you ask me. Frazier also never had any questionable decisions either, such as the ones that Liston had with Summerlin.

This has been explained to you in a fair amount of depth already. The best fighters between 1968-1973 ( Frazier's prime ), were not big punchers. He beat the best men available though. Men like Shavers, Norton, Lyle and Foreman did not become part of the big picture until around 1973/74. Also, I would say that Chuvalo, Bonavena, and Quarry were not exactly feather fisted. Chuvalo had some 64 Ko's in 73 wins. What fighter did Liston face who had a better ratio than that?

Frazier defeated a larger number of ranked fighters in only 37 fights than Liston did in some 54. He also fought a lot of good guys early too. In only his 11th pro fight, he faced Oscar Bonavena. In his 12th fight he fought an aging Machen. In his 13th fight, he fought Doug Jones. In his 17th fight, he fought Goerge Chuvalo. In his 19th fight, he fought undefeated Buster Mathis for the NYSAC world title. There are few fighters in history who can claim that they fought better comp earlier than Frazier.

 

Liston busting up Williams twice, Machen, Folley, Valdez, Dejohn and being the only man ever to ever knock ATG floyd patterson down for a 10 count(did so twice) and knockout top 10 ranked Wayne Bethea(58 seconds) is more dominant if you ask me.

Liston was in his 5th and 6th pro fights with hardly any experience when he fought 20-1 Johnny Summerlin who would be ranked in the top 10 within a matter of months........what top prospects did frazier face in his 5th pro bout? Didnt Frazier get knocked down by a tomato can early in his career?


Frazier was knocked down twice(nearly stopped) and given a gift decision over oscar bonavena. Very controversial. Frazier also had a good 12 pro fights at the time and FAR MORE amatuer experience than liston.

Liston was fighting ranked guys in his 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th pro fights. Frazier had far far more amatuer experience than liston, so he should be more acclamated being thrown into the wolves than liston was.

Funny How Yank Durham And Eddie Futch wouldnt let frazier go anywhere near a 40 year old liston.

Yes its a phenominal win, but it wasnt a prime 1960s Ali he beat, Ali also beat him twice . Also Liston never got to face ali when he was young hungry and in his prime like frazier did(he faced

 

I believe Joe Frazier is a top five ATG heavyweight. Furthermore, I consider Smoke's career achievements to have eclipsed those of Sonny, when comparing what each had accomplished following Liston's rematch over Patterson against Joe's dismantling of Bob Foster.

Liston's an individual who sometimes appears more highly regarded for his potential than what he actualized.

Head to head, I think Joe would have outhustled Sonny for the win. Frazier never gave up, no matter how badly he was hurt, and Liston could not finish off either Whitehurst or Martin when he had the chance. Nor would Sonny have intimidated Joe.

In their first meeting, Patterson had some fleeting success slipping under Liston's shots on the way inside. But when Sonny had him in trouble, Floyd did not have the strength necessary to lock both his arms from pounding away. I think Frazier might have succeeded where Patterson failed.

George Foreman made virtually every one of his opponents seem puny in the strength department. But Joe was able to back up Bonavena from time to time, making Ringo retreat behind his jab. He grabbed Ali's arms with his gloves and yanked Ali off the ropes into ring center during the FOTC. He was not overpowered in the trenches when facing Jerry Quarry, a counterpuncher known for his physical strength. Ron Stander did succeed in making Frazier give ground, only to learn that Smoke could go to his toes laterally in providing angles. Ramos and Mathis certainly failed to outmuscle Joe. Chuvalo was hardly a 97 pound weakling, and Scrap Iron rarely took a backward step when he took on Sonny. The aforementioned Ali developed excellent tensile strength with his lumberjack workouts, but Joe was strong enough to cope with Muhammad's qualities in this respect.

While I am not disputing that Liston had tremendous physical strength, I do not believe he possessed the freakishly superhuman strength of Foreman. As for George's claims that only Sonny could force him back without him being able to make Liston retreat against his will, remember that George was a much bigger and taller target, with a shorter jab, who did not throw punches as straight as Sonny did, or have the aptitude for avoiding such shots. Liston's punches alone could have kept Foreman too far away to muscle Sonny around.

Frazier is a different kettle of fish.

Frazier had a better chin than Patterson. (Ramos, Stander, and Ali in round two of his middle fight with Smoke, all would have probably scored knockdowns on Floyd with the punches they woke up Joe with. Of course Jerry Quarry had Patterson down three times, Frazier none.)

If Muhammad Ali had never come back to boxing, and Joe retired after the beating of Foster, Frazier would still be an ATG heavyweight in my book, and a first ballot IBHOFer. (And if Ali was rendered unavailable by the authorities to compete in the FOTC, Foreman/Frazier I may have proved a good deal more interesting than is commonly assumed. I don't know that a still prime Joe would have withstood George's challenge, but if he combined the physical ability he brought for the FOTC into the 1976 rematch against Foreman with the rather resourceful strategy he tried using the second time, some interesting surprises might have unfolded.)

 

Thread closed.......

 

LOL thread closed because someone said even a cruder wilder slower less durable more predictable fighter could blast out frazier in 2, but liston couldn't?

 

Ummm Maybe because liston was FAT AND 40 YEARS OLD? didnt grandpa sonny stop scrap iron inside the distance. did frazier?

 

I'm not even going to read the responses to this topic because and just say on ACCOMPLISHMENTS...

Joe Frazier.