Yes I am. I am not implying he wasn't good, I am simply saying he's nowhere near as good/invincible as some think. Even his physical attributes (speed, chin) have been greatly overrated.
Johnny, I am finding this all a tad surreal ! Of all the areas you could have chosen to down play Ali,s greatness you chose, speed, please, has there been a faster HW in living memory than Ali , have you forgotten the Ali/Clay of 62/67 dancing for 15 rounds in some cases, all 15st of him, fight after fight, then you compound your thesis by citing his chin WHAT !! . Honestly has there ever been a HW who took more punches on the chin and remained upriht than Ali , not withstanding the Cooper/Fraizer knockdowns, which were very good punches, I mean he was getting hit by some of the most murderous HW in history = Liston, Williams, Moore, Norton, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Shavers, Lyle, Holmes, powder punchers these were not. Either this is a wind up post, and I have been taken in ? or you and I have been watching different sports. keep well.
No problem. So dont you agree with the word "maybe" or with statement "the hardest puncher of all time"? Do you say: 1) he was surely the hardest puncher of all time in HW (not maybe) 2) he was surely not the hardest puncher of all time in HW
Thanks for your question. I wouldn't want anyone to misconstrue my answer. I have never really understood how anyone can rate punching power from film anyway. Punching effectiveness seems like a better term to me. I lean very strongly toward 2. About his knockout record, all I can say is that Dean Chance was a great manager. That said, I have to add that I respect Earnie Shavers for his long and honorable career.
I can live with what you say about Dempsey and Patterson (yes Patterson was a good fighter, but not anywhere near great when compared with others who truly merit that classifcation, IMO). About Louis, I don't know what a "top 12" jab is, but his jab was plenty fast, especially for how hard it was and it was made all the more effective by the feinting he employed with it and the rest of the punches in his arsenal for which his opponents had to be on the lookout. I do agree that many of the fighters in his era were not that great, however. As for Ali, I'm not sure how you can equate major elements of his style with SRR, Walcott, Charles, Gavilan, and especially Machen of all people. The prime Pre-exile Ali held his hands much lower and relied on his footwork way more than those guys. Pep relied on footwork but in other respects, like the placement of his hands, his defense was much more conventional than Ali. I grant you that the old Ali liked to sit on the ropes like Machen, but that's about the only similarity. It was the young Ali who was revolutionary. The old Ali relied on toughness and heart, and those qualities, though admirable, were not revolutionary. As to Foreman (and here I refer to the young Foreman since I have scarcely seen any of the old Foreman's fights), contrary to what you say Foreman had exceptional hand speed, especially his jab. Watch the Chuvalo and Kirkman fights for instance.
Great post! I always love reading your stuff even if you're disagreeing with me. On Ali, I wasn't necessarily calling Ali just like any of the guys I mentioned, but merely stating that he did share similarities with them, like you said with Machen, their tendencies to lay on the ropes was really the only thing. I must clarify on Foreman. Although I don't think Foreman was ever really that fast, I felt that he was decently fast in his pre-title days. But in his two-round blow-outs of Frazier or Norton, two of his best wins and performances, he is not fast at all. His jab I have never disputed. He always had a tremendous jab, even as a young man.
Amir Khan now and before his last defeat, even more the defeat before that etc. Even after being exposed people on here think he was a really good fighter and that he was out-boxing Canelo, Khan was never even near Canelo`s level P4P, also Eubank Sr, I just don`t think he was very good at all and had a slew of awful title defenses under his belt before Collins beat him.
A good fighter adjusts his punch speed according to the style and capabilities of his opposition and to the opportunities that the particular fight in question present. If he has the opportunity to deliver a power punch, he will set himself and leverage his weight behind it. Early in the fight he is likely to proffer quick punches to set his opponent up. If he stuns or hurts his opponent, he can set himself and take the time to unload the heavy artillery. IMO, this is particularly the case with heavyweights.
Power shots need to be fast to have any power, Foreman`s hand speed was good but his combo speed was bad compared to fighters like Tyson and Lewis, good combo speed is when the follow up punches follow up almost instantly after the previous shot, Tyson always said make two punches sound like one. This content is protected
Ali is very overrated. He is an ATG, but many of his victories are really dubious, including dirty play, questionable decisions of judges, suspected match-fixing.
