Who is the nicest fighter in History?

MagnificentMatt · Oct 8, 2007

Sonny Liston and Riddick Bowe

Sizzle · Oct 8, 2007

janitor said:

Sizzle said:

Well now that depends whether you consider beating up women to be unethical

He lived his life how he wanted and if a dozen black men were lynched after one of his fights then so be it.

But Louis tore down the colour bar where Johnson only made it stronger. You cannot argue with the results he got.

He did make a stand for race relations by proving that he was a positive role model and that he was not inferior. That is why fighters like Ezzarch Charles anf Joe Walcott were able to fight for the title on their merits.

You might think this is cowardice but in many ways it is the ultimate form of courage. Louis sacrificed himself to make things better for other black athletes

And ended up making things worse not better.

Who do you think did more good for black people Louis or Johnson?

Serious answers only please.

Man you really are a fool.

If Schmeling rejects Hitler on Monday he is dead by Wednesday. It is that simple. People got shot just for printing pamphlets criticising the regime.
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1. Beating up women was an allegation, from what I've learnt. Not that I like to excuse either, but since so many people are willing to excuse the "social confines" of racism at the time (Jeffries doesn't defend against blacks? Blah, they were racist times), why not misogynism too? Besides, even if it did happen, it was behind closed doors - What I'm referring to is the social statements Jack Johnson made. Banging plenty of white women, flaunting his wealth and status, things that showed his lifestyle wouldn't be affected by the colour of his skin.

2. Had Joe Louis never existed, do you think we'd still be living in a largely racist society? Of course not. The moral trend has changed, regardless of what Joe Louis or Jack Johnson did or did not do. Moral trends are as arbitrary as trends in the fashion industry.

3. Yes, Joe Louis' behaviour paved the way for other black fighters of that era to be given an opportunity, and he deserves credit for that. But I would respect him more if he insisted black men were equal to the white man, rather than disgracing himself by not celebrating knocking out white opponents, as if saying the black man didn't have the right to do so. Jack Johnson insisted on equality - Joe Louis insisted on acceptance. Obviously, acceptance was received a lot better. But acceptance is still a ****ing disgrace, Jack Johnson had the right idea in his mind all along. Joe Louis didn't mind the fact that Jesse Owens could win four gold medals, not be allowed to meet the President, and then be forced to sit at the back of the bus like a piece of ****.

4. Schmeling had regular lunches and dinners with Hitler, ran errands for him, spoke to him on the phone, and even perpetuated his pathetic Nazi aryan race propaganda in the leadup to the 2nd Joe Louis fight saying a black man could never beat him.

Schmeling lived in America. He didn't have to start a mutiny against Hitler, but surely it wasn't neccessary to suck the **** of a man so evil to that extent. He did the smart thing, not the courageous thing.
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JimboDs · Oct 8, 2007

Alexis Arguello was the nicest fighter I ever was able to meet. Surprisingly, Aaron Pryor was pretty cool too.

Marvelous Marcum · Oct 8, 2007

Sizzle said:

janitor said:

But I would respect him more if he insisted black men were equal to the white man, rather than disgracing himself by not celebrating knocking out white opponents, as if saying the black man didn't have the right to do so.

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Chill Malcolm.
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sjc · Oct 8, 2007

Tommy Hearns seems like a nice guy

janitor · Oct 9, 2007

Sizzle said:

janitor said:

1. Beating up women was an allegation, from what I've learnt. Not that I like to excuse either, but since so many people are willing to excuse the "social confines" of racism at the time (Jeffries doesn't defend against blacks? Blah, they were racist times), why not misogynism too? Besides, even if it did happen, it was behind closed doors -

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Johnson was involved in frequent public brawls somtimes over the most trivial matters. He was not a good or moral man by any definition.

What I'm referring to is the social statements Jack Johnson made. Banging plenty of white women, flaunting his wealth and status, things that showed his lifestyle wouldn't be affected by the colour of his skin.

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He did those things for himself.

Not for the good of other black people.

He had a historic oportunity to make a diferenc and he blew it.

Is it fair to criticise him for this?

Maybe not.

But lets not make a saint out of a sinner here. He was a vain and selfish man who set black athletes back two decades. His most earnest whym was that their would never be another black heavyweight champion because that was what made him unique.

2. Had Joe Louis never existed, do you think we'd still be living in a largely racist society? Of course not. The moral trend has changed, regardless of what Joe Louis or Jack Johnson did or did not do. Moral trends are as arbitrary as trends in the fashion industry.

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When Joe Louis came along all major sports were segregated and black boxers were never alowed to fight for the heavyweight title.

When he retired all major sports were desegregated and the two men fighting for his vacant crown were both black.

Joe Louis more than any other athlete made this happen. That is the historic reality.

3. Yes, Joe Louis' behaviour paved the way for other black fighters of that era to be given an opportunity, and he deserves credit for that. But I would respect him more if he insisted black men were equal to the white man,
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Joe Louis did a lot to force equal rights.

He got facilities in the US army desegregated during the war.

He took defences against black challengers against the wishes of his managment.

He lobied congress on behalf of the civil rights movment in the 60s.

I consider that to be a better atempt at insisteng that black men are equal than humiliating white oponents, wraping gauze around your ***** and refusing to defend against black challengers.

rather than disgracing himself by not celebrating knocking out white opponents,
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What is so bad about showing respect to a fallen oponent regardless of colour?

Jack Johnson insisted on equality -
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He insisted on equality for himself.

For everybody else of his race he either didnt give a damn or even wanted them to stay at the bottom of the pile to diferentiate his own position.

Joe Louis insisted on acceptance. Obviously, acceptance was received a lot better. But acceptance is still a ****ing disgrace,
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Louis beleived in desegregation and reconciliation. He believed that the way to achieve these things was by a diplomatic aproach. Turns out he was right.

Johnsons aproach might be more intrinsicaly satisfying but it was the wrong aproach for everybody but himself. How diferent might it have been for men like Sam Langford if they had a black champion who would not only fight them but create a climate where they would be accepted after he retired.

Jack Johnson had the right idea in his mind all along. Joe Louis didn't mind the fact that Jesse Owens could win four gold medals, not be allowed to meet the President, and then be forced to sit at the back of the bus like a piece of ****.

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It grated on him every day of his life if his own testimony is to be believed. He just had a realistic estimation of how he could make progress. By diplomacy rather than confrontation.

4. Schmeling had regular lunches and dinners with Hitler, ran errands for him, spoke to him on the phone,
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These were not invitations that you could readily refuse at the time.

and even perpetuated his pathetic Nazi aryan race propaganda in the leadup to the 2nd Joe Louis fight saying a black man could never beat him.

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He didn't actualy. German papers quoted him as saying this but he always denied it. Schmeling told Jessie Owens at the 1936 olympics (after he had defeated Louis) that Louis was going to be one of the greatest champions of all time.

Schmeling lived in America. He didn't have to start a mutiny against Hitler, but surely it wasn't neccessary to suck the **** of a man so evil to that extent. He did the smart thing, not the courageous thing

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Schmeling lived in Germany most of the time and when he traveled abroad they made sure that his wife did not go with him at least laterly. At the time of the second Louis fight she was under virtual house arest.

You dont seem to understand that anybody who criticised hitler whatever their previous service to the party had a verry short existence. They even shot 13 year old girls for handing out pamphlets criticising Hitler. Schmeling probably went much further than was advisable by refusing a storm troopers dagger of honour, openly associating with jews and refusing to endoers Hitlers writings on boxing.

Also consider that a man like Schmeling is a much better propaganda tool dead than alive. The ideal scenario for the natzis in hindsight would be if Schmeling had died after the first Louis fight. Then he would always be the man who would have Louis's number, any identity could be printed on him by the regime, and he could not say anything against them or even be humanly falible.
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Sizzle · Oct 9, 2007

janitor said:

Sizzle said:

janitor said:

Johnson was involved in frequent public brawls somtimes over the most trivial matters. He was not a good or moral man by any definition.

He did those things for himself.

Not for the good of other black people.

He had a historic oportunity to make a diferenc and he blew it.

Is it fair to criticise him for this?

Maybe not.

But lets not make a saint out of a sinner here. He was a vain and selfish man who set black athletes back two decades. His most earnest whym was that their would never be another black heavyweight champion because that was what made him unique.

When Joe Louis came along all major sports were segregated and black boxers were never alowed to fight for the heavyweight title.

When he retired all major sports were desegregated and the two men fighting for his vacant crown were both black.

Joe Louis more than any other athlete made this happen. That is the historic reality.

Joe Louis did a lot to force equal rights.

He got facilities in the US army desegregated during the war.

He took defences against black challengers against the wishes of his managment.

He lobied congress on behalf of the civil rights movment in the 60s.

I consider that to be a better atempt at insisteng that black men are equal than humiliating white oponents, wraping gauze around your ***** and refusing to defend against black challengers.

What is so bad about showing respect to a fallen oponent regardless of colour?

He insisted on equality for himself.

For everybody else of his race he either didnt give a damn or even wanted them to stay at the bottom of the pile to diferentiate his own position.

Louis beleived in desegregation and reconciliation. He believed that the way to achieve these things was by a diplomatic aproach. Turns out he was right.

Johnsons aproach might be more intrinsicaly satisfying but it was the wrong aproach for everybody but himself. How diferent might it have been for men like Sam Langford if they had a black champion who would not only fight them but create a climate where they would be accepted after he retired.

It grated on him every day of his life if his own testimony is to be believed. He just had a realistic estimation of how he could make progress. By diplomacy rather than confrontation.

These were not invitations that you could readily refuse at the time.

He didn't actualy. German papers quoted him as saying this but he always denied it. Schmeling told Jessie Owens at the 1936 olympics (after he had defeated Louis) that Louis was going to be one of the greatest champions of all time.

Schmeling lived in Germany most of the time and when he traveled abroad they made sure that his wife did not go with him at least laterly. At the time of the second Louis fight she was under virtual house arest.

You dont seem to understand that anybody who criticised hitler whatever their previous service to the party had a verry short existence. They even shot 13 year old girls for handing out pamphlets criticising Hitler. Schmeling probably went much further than was advisable by refusing a storm troopers dagger of honour, openly associating with jews and refusing to endoers Hitlers writings on boxing.

Also consider that a man like Schmeling is a much better propaganda tool dead than alive. The ideal scenario for the natzis in hindsight would be if Schmeling had died after the first Louis fight. Then he would always be the man who would have Louis's number, any identity could be printed on him by the regime, and he could not say anything against them or even be humanly falible.
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1. Joe Louis was also involved in public brawls. Remember he and Ray getting into a beef with a military police officer? Big ****ing whoop. Not everyone who is involved in public brawls is immoral. Joe Louis also cheated on his wife incessantly and beat one to a pulp. How moral is that?

2. Yeh, Johnson did things for himself. So did Joe Louis. He followed Jack Blackburns instructions on how to act so he could get a World title shot, and once in this position of power really did little to seek equality. Jack Johnson felt equal to the white man and acted in such a way which reflected that. Why the hell should he behave the way society DEMANDS HE DOES, just because of his skin colour?
I think it's borderline sickening that you try to blame Johnson for black people being lynched due to Johnson acting flamboyantly in the ring. Why not blame, UM, the PEOPLE WHO LYNCHED THEM!?! They're the ****wits.

3. Jack Johnson dispelled the myth of white athletic supremacy - Yeh, he fought for the World title "for himself", but the victory reflects admirably on his race. It changed the way many people viewed negros. This is what angered them the most.

4. Like I said, I do give Louis credit for opening the doors to other black boxers of that time, but his approach to civil rights was always too passive - And this when the papers were printing some horrifying things about him, just because he was a black man winning fights. I can't view this as courage, regardless of how you spin it. Every man has the god given right to stand up for himself. Whether he choses to do so, is up to him.

5. You may have swayed me on the Schmeling argument - I'll still maintain he could have made more of a stand, but you've convinced me it would not have been reasonable, and perhaps altogether foolish. He was too intelligent to martyr himself.
Also, on the topic of that quote, most sources I've checked out indicate it motivated Louis, and that there was no immediate denial from Schmeling - Can you find me a source which suggests otherwise?
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McGrain · Oct 9, 2007

Brickhaus said:

Didn't he also walk through the streets of New York with large wild cats, shooting guns randomly? Or am I thinking of someone else? Or has my lack of historical knowledge led this sarcasm to fail miserably on me?
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Oh, he was definitley mad. Just nice with it. Like Bruce Forsyth.

My dinner with Conteh · Oct 9, 2007

Sizzle said:

janitor said:

rather than disgracing himself by not celebrating knocking out white opponents, as if saying the black man didn't have the right to do so.
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Are you this boring in real life?
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McGrain · Oct 9, 2007

My dinner with Conteh said:

Are you this boring in real life?
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janitor · Oct 9, 2007

Sizzle said:

1. Joe Louis was also involved in public brawls. Remember he and Ray getting into a beef with a military police officer? Big ****ing whoop. Not everyone who is involved in public brawls is immoral.

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The only ocasion on record where Louis was involved in a public brawl was when he defended himself against a racist military policeman who asulted him. The MP was reprimanded over the incident.

Joe Louis also cheated on his wife incessantly and beat one to a pulp. How moral is that?

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He was certainly a serial adulterer but there is no evidence of him asulting any of his wives.

On either score there is a lot more dirt on Johnson.

2. Yeh, Johnson did things for himself. So did Joe Louis. He followed Jack Blackburns instructions on how to act so he could get a World title shot, and once in this position of power really did little to seek equality.
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I have already listed various pro active things that Louis did to advance the cause of civil rights. Johnson for contrast did nothing that I am aware of.

Jack Johnson felt equal to the white man and acted in such a way which reflected that. Why the hell should he behave the way society DEMANDS HE DOES, just because of his skin colour?

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Because of the concequences for others.

Why dose a police officer negotiate with a man with a gun?

Is it because the man with the gun has a moral case?

No it is because he can use it on inocent people.

I think it's borderline sickening that you try to blame Johnson for black people being lynched due to Johnson acting flamboyantly in the ring. Why not blame, UM, the PEOPLE WHO LYNCHED THEM!?! They're the ****wits.

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Of course they are. But Johnson knew that this was a likley concequence of his humiliating white oponents and he did it anyway.

3. Jack Johnson dispelled the myth of white athletic supremacy - Yeh, he fought for the World title "for himself", but the victory reflects admirably on his race.
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Sure. Shame he didnt also display superiority over the top black fighters of the period as well.

It changed the way many people viewed negros. This is what angered them the most.

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It reinforced the steriotype of negros as being brutish and amoral.

4. Like I said, I do give Louis credit for opening the doors to other black boxers of that time,
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How disarmingly generous of you.

but his approach to civil rights was always too passive -
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You seem to value confrontation over efectivness here. Louis just did what needed to be done. You are asking him to do something that would be less efective but more satisfying for you personaly.

And this when the papers were printing some horrifying things about him, just because he was a black man winning fights. I can't view this as courage, regardless of how you spin it. Every man has the god given right to stand up for himself. Whether he choses to do so, is up to him.

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What he did about it was to prove them wrong in such a way that even his most poisonous critics had to take notice.

That is a lot harder and requires a lot more courage than going off the rails and ranting against them.

5. You may have swayed me on the Schmeling argument - I'll still maintain he could have made more of a stand, but you've convinced me it would not have been reasonable, and perhaps altogether foolish. He was too intelligent to martyr himself.
Also, on the topic of that quote, most sources I've checked out indicate it motivated Louis, and that there was no immediate denial from Schmeling - Can you find me a source which suggests otherwise?

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Schmeling said to Louis privately that he did not say it. The only evidence for him saying it comes from the German papers of the day so neither source is 100% watertight.

Even if schmeling did say it he might have been put under pressure to do so.
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Sizzle · Oct 9, 2007

janitor said:

The only ocasion on record where Louis was involved in a public brawl was when he defended himself against a racist military policeman who asulted him. The MP was reprimanded over the incident.

He was certainly a serial adulterer but there is no evidence of him asulting any of his wives.

On either score there is a lot more dirt on Johnson.

I have already listed various pro active things that Louis did to advance the cause of civil rights. Johnson for contrast did nothing that I am aware of.

Because of the concequences for others.

Why dose a police officer negotiate with a man with a gun?

Is it because the man with the gun has a moral case?

No it is because he can use it on inocent people.

Of course they are. But Johnson knew that this was a likley concequence of his humiliating white oponents and he did it anyway.

Sure. Shame he didnt also display superiority over the top black fighters of the period as well.

It reinforced the steriotype of negros as being brutish and amoral.

How disarmingly generous of you.

You seem to value confrontation over efectivness here. Louis just did what needed to be done. You are asking him to do something that would be less efective but more satisfying for you personaly.

What he did about it was to prove them wrong in such a way that even his most poisonous critics had to take notice.

That is a lot harder and requires a lot more courage than going off the rails and ranting against them.

Schmeling said to Louis privately that he did not say it. The only evidence for him saying it comes from the German papers of the day so neither source is 100% watertight.

Even if schmeling did say it he might have been put under pressure to do so.
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1. Yeh, that was the one I was referring to. So both Joe Louis and Jack Johnson have been involved in public brawls.

2. Joe Louis assaulted one of his lovers Lena Turner. Almost choked her to death, he confessed to it. FACT.

3. Jack Johnson didn't let the ridiculous social expectations influence his behaviour. As a result, his life was at risk everytime he entered the ring. It's not confrontation I admire, it's courage. It took courage from Jack Johnson to take on the world the way he did, whether it did an awful lot for race relations or not. Jack Johnson was a man of principal, and was hated moreso for the fact that he was whooping the "athletically superior" whites, than for the fact he was flamboyant and promiscuous.
You speak as if you expect him to retire due to the possibility of black men being murdered as a consequence of his victory? That's preposterous. He wasn't prepared to let racist ideals dictate his life.

4. Now you're beginning to discuss Jack Johnsons exploits in the ring, which is another matter entirely.

5. I'm not asking Louis to do anything. I'm merely outlining the difference between his behaviour and Jack Johnsons. Louis was conformist, Johnson was not. As Muhammad Ali has stated, Louis was undemanding and compliant in the race war.
He rarely voiced his disapproval of racism, and that minor instance with the segregation of the army (which would've occurred eventually anyway) is the only thing he ever contributed. I really don't think Joe stood up for what he believed in. He didn't want to upset anybody.

6. I absolutely agree Schmeling would've been put under pressure to say it - That was my original point.
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Sizzle · Oct 9, 2007

My dinner with Conteh said:

Sizzle said:

janitor said:

Are you this boring in real life?
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Yes.
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janitor · Oct 9, 2007

Sizzle said:

janitor said:

1. Yeh, that was the one I was referring to. So both Joe Louis and Jack Johnson have been involved in public brawls.

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There is a big diference between defending yoursef against a racist MP with a batton and beating up some bell boy for mishandeling your suitcase, or beating up your manager in a dispute over money, or beating up an auto mechanic because you dont like the price he charges.

2. Joe Louis assaulted one of his lovers Lena Turner. Almost choked her to death, he confessed to it. FACT.

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I am aware of this incident and it dose not reflect on him with any credit.

It is important to put it in context however. Did miss Turner sustain any injuries to justify the asertion that she was nearly choked to death.

It is legitimate to ask because Jack Johnsons wife spent a week in hospital after sombody beat her up.

3. Jack Johnson didn't let the ridiculous social expectations influence his behaviour. As a result, his life was at risk everytime he entered the ring. It's not confrontation I admire, it's courage. It took courage from Jack Johnson to take on the world the way he did, whether it did an awful lot for race relations or not.
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Yes Johnson was brave.

That is about the only positive thing you can say about what he did. Beyond that he was totaly self serving.

Jack Johnson was a man of principal,
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He was about as far from being a man of principle as you can get.

His only principle was

"If you get betweenme and what I want you are going down black or white"

and was hated moreso for the fact that he was whooping the "athletically superior" whites, than for the fact he was flamboyant and promiscuous.

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Some sources white owned papers were quite sympathetic towards Johnson before he won the title. Less so afterwards.

You speak as if you expect him to retire due to the possibility of black men being murdered as a consequence of his victory?
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No he should have tried to minimise any backlash by treating his oponents respectfully in the ring and conducting himself corectly in public.

4. Now you're beginning to discuss Jack Johnsons exploits in the ring, which is another matter entirely.

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Not at all.

Louis actively tried to make oportunities for black contenders even fighting them against the wishes of his managment at times. Johnson did not give a damn about them and was concequently hated by them.

5. I'm not asking Louis to do anything. I'm merely outlining the difference between his behaviour and Jack Johnsons. Louis was conformist, Johnson was not. As Muhammad Ali has stated, Louis was undemanding and compliant in the race war.

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Mate if there had been a race war it would have been a verry short and one sided war and the winner would have been a bit of a no brainer.

Race war.

What you did have was a civil rights strugle that would not be resolved by men like Johnson or Ali but by diplomats like Louis. That is not conformist it is just pragmatic.

Perhaps you think Louis would have been doing something positive if he had humiliated his oponents or joined a racist religeous group.

He rarely voiced his disapproval of racism, and that minor instance with the segregation of the army (which would've occurred eventually anyway) is the only thing he ever contributed.
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That is a damn site more than Johnson ever did by the way.

No it is not the only thing he contributed.

He lobied congress after the race riots in the 60s asking them to adress the concearns of black people while Muhamad Ali was in the NOI.

6. I absolutely agree Schmeling would've been put under pressure to say it - That was my original point.

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You seem to have quite a niaeve view about what pressure means in this context.
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ChrisPontius · Oct 9, 2007

Janitor KO1 Sizzle

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