Who is the South American HW GOAT?

Ringo Bonavena.

 

1. Bonavena
2. Godoy
3. Lovell
4. Peralta
5. Mercado
6. Evangelista
7. Brion
8. Jose Luis Garcia
9. Firpo
10. Rodriguez

 

Oscar really is the only choice here. In peak form he beat Peralta, Martin, Folley, Mildenberger, and Chuvalo.

 

What exactly makes you think Alfredo is better to Oscar?

 

I just don't see how Evangelista is better, he had a very bad record against any decent opposition, and didn't accomplish much other than a SD win over Snipes.
He lost twice to Zanon, dropped a decision to an aged Ali, got knocked out by Holmes, Spinks, and Page... Not to even mention his losses and draws to lesser opposition when he was in his prime years.

 

Yes, Peralta was mostly a LHW but he scored some decent wins at HW too and had a draw with Ron Lyle.

 

This might sound like a strange answer, but outside of Bonavena I think it's Jimmy Abbott. I wonder what he could've done if he would have taken conditioning seriously.

 

He didn't just lose to Zanon, but in his attempted 1979 12 round defense of the European Title, he got completely schooled, utterly shut out. (Only Lucien Rodriguez ever pulled off a decision win over Zanon, which was reversed in their rematch.) Weirdly, Zanon won every single round against peak Ken Norton, Jerry Quarry, peak Larry Holmes and John L. Gardner where he remained upright for a full three minutes. Zanon actually out jabbed Holmes conclusively. He couldn't take a punch and couldn't crack an empty eggshell, but if he was upright when the final bell rang, his opponent was in very serious trouble. It's easy to dismiss Jerry Quarry's poor showing against him to JQ being utterly rusty and completely shot, until you watch the rounds where he kept his feet with Norton and Holmes. If Zanon had a chin, then we have to start asking some pretty disturbing questions. (Taking body shots wasn't a problem for him.) He achieved what he did with NO margin for error!

Evangelista could hit, and would've knocked out Zanon if he'd connected solidly to the head, but Alfredo's only success came when he was briefly hooking to the body (which he never should've gotten away from).


Alternatives to Bonavena? I'll suggest that Godoy did far better against a far better version of Louis than Ringo did against Frazier in their rematch, Frazier's final match before reaching his peak. (Frazier-Bonavena III in 1969 or 1970 would've ended in a stoppage win for Frazier and Frazier-Bonavena III wouldn't have been irrational prior to Ali-Bonavena in December 1970.)

Very far from getting ruined in his rematch with Louis, Godoy went on a wartime tear starting in December 1942. Godoy's career went nonstop for 21 years. Only peak Louis and Leonard Morrow stopped him after his career got going. For my money, Godoy II was one of the Bomber's two best career performances (Max Baer being the other).

Was Godoy actually the best heavyweight in the world during the wartime hiatus of Louis? Beat Louis challengers Dorazio, Musto 2X and Galento 2X. Retired an old Firpo, but was the only one to stop the Wild Bull after Dempsey. Add in Loughran, and that's five World HW Title challengers seven times, including two IBHOFers with one being an ATG.

Excellent list! I do think I might switch Ringo down for Arturo, but probably not. Beating Oscar took a special level of competitor, but it was a prematurely shortened career, so we don't know how much further he might have gone.

Godoy won the final bout in his even trilogy with Loughran in 1934, and decisioned the 6'4" Abel Cestac (discovered by Firpo in 1940 and jointly managed by Luis and Dempsey) in 1951. Also in 1951, he drew with Karel Sys, who would draw with Moore a few months later, so he ended his career at a high level. 22 losses though.


I think very highly of Bonavena, but we also have an awful lot of Ringo footage, as Oscar was extremely well covered from the beginning of his career.


Firpo, I think is too low. He uniquely put down an old but active Willard for the full count, and dropping the oft beaten Bill Brennan for the count is also a credible outcome. He won over the Championship Distance, and stopped Spalla in 14 rounds.

Jose Luis Garcia? That's mainly off of Norton I. I just don't think that's enough.

Brion, Marciano's stablemate is an extremely astute mention, and we do have him on kinescope with a comebacking Louis at a time the old Bomber was still able to hook Savold down for the count. (Although Marciano retired Savold and sent him to the hospital, Rocky couldn't drop him.) Brion was an extremely tough customer, and actually intended to be the stable star when he began sparring wars with Marciano.

Still need to reflect on this. Obviously, I'm "thinking out loud" on the keyboard, not asserting much here, just ideas for ranking them.

 

Bonavena also fought in the 70's, and I'm not at all sure Evangelista lasts 12 rounds with Lyle. In fact, I'm not sure he goes the distance with Patterson, and Alfredo certainly doesn't go into the 15th round with the Ali that Ringo faced. Also, Oscar followed Lyle by decisioning the 6'4" Middleton, who Norton was extremely unimpressive against heading into his rubber match with Ali. Does Evangelista decision Middleton the way Ringo UDed him?

Here HZ26, I'm strictly confining myself to the 1970's, not what Bonavena did in the 1960's, or what Alfredo did in the 1980's. Within the 70's, Evangelista had the number of future Holmes challenger Lucien Rodriguez 2X, won the European Title from Billy Aird over the Championship Distance (but that was in Madrid, after Alfredo had the experience of going 15 with Ali), and his challenge off an eight round decision loss to nemesis Zanon was extremely controversial, as he was just 14-1-1. (Muhammad made a few title defenses in the 1970's which were against miserably unqualified, unaccomplished and inexperienced challengers, and actually lost the title in the third of those. Evangelista and Coopman didn't win the EBU HW title until AFTER Ali, and Coopman never defended it successfully.).

Okay, "bigger?" For Lyle, Ringo weighed 207, just two pounds less than Evangelista for Ali. And Oscar, at 5'11" to Alfredo's 6'1-1/2" was more compact. Bonavena also actually had a longer reach, 73 inches to 72 inches, so Evangelista was not really "bigger." And at the end of 1987, a year which he entered holding the EBU Title, he lost to the smaller Adilson Rodrigues.

Ringo was only 33 when he was shot to death. If he'd lived into the 1980's, then it's entirely possible he would have actually squared off with Evangelista before the decade was out. I've no doubt Oscar takes that one.

IRL, there would be a time in the 1980's where Alfredo would have overtaken an aging Bonavena due to the sheer passage of time, but when? Straight up, Ringo was far stronger physically, and he wasn't decked after Ali (which again took 15 rounds and very possibly the hardest single punch Muhammad ever unloaded). His was an unorthodox strength based approach which aged very well. (He even physically overpowered Chuvalo in decking the Canadian twice. Forget the official record, watch their footage at 0.25 speed on the YouTube settings. Those were clean punches. Referee Arthur Mercante actually blew the call.)