Who left more on table...Holmes or Marciano?

"Rocky Marciano couldn't carry my jockstrap." Or so Larry claimed after coming up just short of 49-0.

Of course things are complex.

Marciano retired early with only the six defenses, but five of those were #1 contenders, and one of them was a #2. The big knock against the Rock is that Nino Valdez obtained the #1 contender spot 3 times, and each time lost it before getting as shot. Valdez was a hot and cold kind of guy who lacked killer instinct, but for the time, he sure was a big fellow, and in hindsight, a lot of people find it a very intriguing match-up. Other than Valdez, Patterson was campaigning at LHW, so the other names that come up are hard-hitting but china-chined Bob Satterfield, light hitting Bob Baker, Tommy Jackson, and maybe Harold Johnson. I think Willie Pastrano was a ranked heavy at the time, but his heyday was well off and at LHW.

Larry Holmes had 20 defenses...or actually 19, as no title was on the line for Marvis Frazier. But of course, Holmes never unified, and most of the really intriguing matches of the era that could have been--Dokes, Tubbs, Page, Coetzee, Thomas--never came off. IN ALL FAIRNESS TO HOLMES, not all of these fights were even on the table from the other side, and the Coetzee match-up fell through for political reasons. But it is undeniable that Holmes threw a belt in the trash rather than fight Page, and he made it absolutely clear that he wanted no part of Thomas late in his first career.

All in all, Marciano had, most expansively, about 19 significant wins-- Louis, Moore, CharlesX2 WalcottX2, LastarzaX2, Layne, Matthews, Cockell, Savold, Reynolds, Muscato, Shkor, Vingo (who was a good prospect), and LowryX2, who was gatekeeper, but a very notable one, and one of Marciano's toughest.

I would say Holmes had, most expansively, about 25 good wins. He had the qualifier against Shavers, the Norton championship win, the "20" defenses, the legendary Mercer comeback, and in the very twilight, he got decent (in perspective) wins against Ferguson and Weaver in a rematch.

Now, everyone knows that I am a Marcianophile, and everyone knows that I give Larry a lot of crap. But the truth is, they are both great heavyweight champs, Marciano's story being undefeated with an 88% KO ratio, and Larry's being 20 defenses (we'll give him Frazier) and the big comeback that culminated with him coming within a hair of unseating McCall.

Two great guys.

But who left more on table...Marciano with Valdez, or Holmes with Page and not unifying in general?

 

And my point about that is that it is a modern affectation. No one at the time was saying that Valdez, who was bested by LHWs, should have gotten a shot against Marciano because he was 6'3".

But yeah, point taken.

 

Lastarza was #1 contender, and a great deal better than some of the dregs Larry dragged up.

Cockell was #2 contender.

Vingo was a good local prospect with a 16-1 record, who Rocky himself cited as one of his toughest opponents.

Lowry had 71 wins and was a very notable gatekeeper type. Comparable to Jesse Ferguson, who I gave Holmes credit for.

I DID GIVE HOLMES CREDIT FOR ALI. I cited all 20 (19) of his title defenses, including Ali's ghost, Zanon, Ledoux, and the rest of the bums, including two of his late-career fights that were decent IN THE CONTEXT OF HIS AGE.

You didn't read when I said I was giving them credit for notable fights MOST EXPANSIVELY...and I did it for both of them. Yes, were I striking names off here, poor Ali, already showing Parkinson's, and with a thyroid problem and medication that ravaged his body, would be the first to go, well before Lastarza, or even Lowry.

Your bizarre hatred of Marciano is clouding your reading comprehension. You are a better man than this.

 

I am sorry but he openly ducked Page, and to a lesser extent, Thomas. A lot of the other WBA champs were not really discussed...but to me that is at least as much Holmes fault as anyone's.

At very least, Page. Thomas is also a big question mark, with Dokes, Coetzee, and Tubbs also worth mentioning.

At the end of the day, he did not fight much of the best of his era, and that is that.

 

Well not for me, because for one, he did not beat those guys, and for another, we are talking about what he left on table as champion.

But you have a right to your opinion and I appreciate your contribution to the thread. Thanks.