Who picked who to win! Ali vs Frazier, March 8, 1971!

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, Mar 8, 2016.


  1. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Ali himself stated he was not in his prime shape for this fight. He stated himself he stopped moving because he was tired. Prime Ali never tired after six rounds of boxing. Ali himself stated he spent too much time promoting this fight and too little training for it.
     
  2. Nighttrain

    Nighttrain 'BOUT IT 'BOUT IT Full Member

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    it never ends! ! !
     
  3. Webbiano

    Webbiano Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Ali never fought anyone with that kind of conditioning. Up until that point in his career anyway. I'd say it's more likely he stops moving after 6 than the whole 15 regardless of which version
     
  4. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    No chance prime Ali stops moving because he is tired after six rounds vs anyone.
     
  5. Foxy 01

    Foxy 01 Boxing Junkie banned

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    Joe fought out of his skin that night. The Ali from 64 -67 would have struggled like f,uck against that Joe. Win or Lose.
     
  6. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Absolutely but he would not be laying on the ropes after 5-6 rounds.
     
  7. Nighttrain

    Nighttrain 'BOUT IT 'BOUT IT Full Member

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    Good point :good
     
  8. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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  9. yancey

    yancey Active Member Full Member

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    Absolutely correct.
     
  10. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    Was there ever a better Muhammad Ali than the one who fought on March 8, 1971? I challenge my readers to take a close look at the film of the Joe Frazier-Muhammad Ali world heavyweight championship match fought on that date. I have watched this film many times, including several times just recently. There are some important factors the careful ****yst should make note of concerning this fight.

    In a comparison to the 1960’s Ali, the 1971 version was more filled out and physically stronger than the Ali of 1966 or ’67. Ali weighed about 202 for his ’66 fight against Henry Cooper, by the time of his fights with Ernie Terrell and Zora Folley in ’67 he was 212. Against Frazier in ’71 Ali weighed 215 only a few pounds more, but his upper body musculature looks far more impressive than that of the 60’s version.

    Consider that Ali was less than 2 months away from being 28 years old, having just hit his 29th birthday Jan. 17, 1971. Ali was still very close to his absolute physical prime as a fighter. It is not fair to say that the Ali who fought Frazier was past his peak, ill prepared or suffering from rust. Ali had two tune-up fights before facing Frazier, one of them a 15 round knockout of Oscar Bonavena. It was the only time in his career that Bonavena, who twice went the distance with Frazier, was ever stopped. Ali was not suffering from poor timing against Frazier, nor was he judging distance improperly, or lacking punching effectiveness, which are the usual signs of a fighter who is affected by lack of good training. The film bears this out clearly.

    When did Ali ever look better than he did in the first five rounds of the ‘71 Frazier fight? Produce the film where Ali ever looked better. Ali’s punching accuracy was superb. He was sitting down on his punches and he never hit harder. The Ali of the second round was as dominant as I ever saw him. He couldn’t miss. Ali swept the early rounds of the fight. If you watch the film one would never know that Ali was coming off a lay off. Perhaps had Ali never went into exile his stamina may have been greater, but Ali never looked better in any of his other fights than he did on that night.

    In all honesty, when did Ali ever go out to totally destroy a foe of such caliber ever before? Against Liston he was young, he boxed, he moved and he made old man Liston look even older than he was and it seemed as if they were moving in different time zones. But Ali did not hit as hard, nor was he as physically strong in the clinch as the Ali of ’71. Ali went after Cleveland Williams, but that was a mercy killing. Williams was not the same fighter he was in previous years due to the fact that he had a bullet lodged in him from a shooting incident. Ali tortured Terrell, he had the speed and the accuracy, but did he not hit him with the power and authority that the Ali of ’71 would have.

    Ali fought a great fight against Frazier. Ask yourself would a peak Ron Lyle hit Joe Frazier harder than the right hands Ali hit Frazier with that night? Ali's punches did not lack proper timing or distance but instead were not only properly thrown but fast, accurate and powerful shots. Ali may have never thrown more consistent hard punches at any other time in his career.

    Some will contend that Ali did not dance for 15 rounds like the 60’s version, but the truth is Ali would never have been able to dance like that against prime Frazier. Frazier came in too fast and was too good at cutting the ring. Frazier, probably more so than any other heavyweight champion was the most persistent at applying non stop pressure for 3 minutes of every round. Frazier’s aggressive bobbing and weaving style would have given any version of Ali fits just as he did in all of their actual fights. One must realize that during the 60's Ali never faced a fighter who could slip his jab and press him constantly on the inside. Ali did not plan on going to war with Frazier, but Frazier forced it on him. As Ali once said, “I bring out the best in everybody, but Joe Frazier brings out the best in me.” We saw the best of Ali in their climatic first fight.

    Frazier, for his part, started “smoking” in the mid rounds when he began to come on as he always did. I counted slip and duck rates for Frazier in this fight. Joe made Ali miss an average of 14-17 punches a round. This is the highest slip and duck rate I have encountered in fighters of this level. Roberto Duran averaged about 12 a round in his peak performance at lightweight against Esteban Dejesus in their rubber match. Frazier was making Ali miss and making him pay. Of their great trilogy it was this first fight where Ali and Frazier were at their best, both undefeated and neither thought that they could lose. The "Thrilla in Manila" may have been more vicious, but only because they were older and couldn't miss each other. In terms of skill level and quality of opposition, no other heavyweight fight in history can match this one.

    Perhaps no other opponent would have beaten this Ali. Consider what Ali brought to the ring that night. Fantastic hand speed, accurate jabs and precise combination punching, a hard right cross that never looked better, strength to clinch, maul and brawl on the inside, and in this fight he proved he could take a tremendous punch. Had Ali never went into exile perhaps we may have seen a better Ali between 1968-1970, that we will never know. What we can recognize is that we never actually saw a better Muhammad Ali than the one who fought Frazier on March 8, 1971.

    Neither Ali nor Frazier were ever quite the same after that fight. Despite having won the decision the fight seemed to take more out of Frazier who never again achieved the same level of success. Ali, although he would go on to enjoy another long reign as champion, never looked sharper. It is ironic that perhaps the greatest heavyweight champion of all time, on his best night ever, lost.

    http://coxscorner.tripod.com/best_ali.html
     
  11. yancey

    yancey Active Member Full Member

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    :good:good:good

    Frazier whipped Ali on one of Ali's greatest nights.

    But the Ali cabana boys will never, never, ever, ever come to grips with it. :lol:
     
  12. yancey

    yancey Active Member Full Member

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    And Ali would never, ever deceive to make himself look better, would he?

    :roll:
     
  13. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    Ali never had the same pep to his step after his license as stripped.

    He couldn't dance, but he couldn't float like a butterfly.
     
  14. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Ali had just turned 29 two months ago How could he not be in his prime?

    Also, Ali beat Frazier, Foreman and Norton post this match.

    The truth is Ali learned a lot after this fight. He became physically stronger, and a good counter puncher and clincher.

    If he had learned these skills prior to 1971, he might have won the first Frazier match.

    Could he have been a little quicker? Maybe, but he was a career high 215 for the FOTC. IMO, he might have been better off at 210-212
     
  15. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    If Joe Frazier took off nearly four years, and then he came back and fought Jerry Quarry, Oscar Bonavena and Muhammad Ali over a FIVE MONTH PERIOD ...

    Frazier not only would've lost to Ali by stoppage, I doubt he'd have survived against Bonavena.

    As it was, Frazier needed eight months off after the Quarry fight. And he needed a year off after fighting Ali.

    The people who type this nonsense about Ali being "at his best" don't know what they are talking about.

    The only reason Ali fought those three guys over five months was he had a case pending before the Supreme Court, and if he lost (and he'd lost every court decision all the way to the Supreme Court) ... he was going to be headed to prison until 1976. If he didn't fight Frazier then, there was a good chance they never would fight.

    And he was dead broke on top of it. It was about as far removed from an ideal situation as one can get.

    The fact that Ali did so well against the top three heavyweights in the world at the time in such a small time frame with prison hanging over his head and coming off nearly a four year layoff ... is amazing.

    If the court case had been decided in early 1971, and Ali had time to fight Ellis first, and push the Frazier fight back to the fall of 1971, giving Ali a year to get back into the swing of things, there would have been a fairer playing field.

    Had Ali not been banned and fought Frazier in the late 60s , Ali likely wins. And Ali was the dominant fighter in their second and third fights.

    Basically, Frazier needed every advantage he could get in 1971 to win, and even then Frazier was beaten to a pulp and needed a year to recover.