Who ranks higher in your middleweight list(160 only)? Trinidad or Joppy?

But you agree that even though Bowe won the trilogy...Holyfield is the greater HW??

I think that's the end of the debate because I don't think your original post had anything to do with who was a greater MW between Tito and Joppy (to be honest I don't think there's a wrong answer here) but more to do with Pacman and Hatton (there's generally a Pacman angle in all of your posts).

From a guy that really dislikes Hatton, and really likes Pac - Hatton is the greater (not better) 140lb fighter.

 

As I said I think the point is arguable either way...but I think comparing Joppy to Hatton (who was the recognised man in the division from 2004-2009) is a totally redundant comparison, and I think you know that as well.

 

Good stuff. I agree:thumbsup

 

I did, and if you had an ounce of reading comprehension, you would have noticed that I compared one career MW's loss to a career WW to anothers. Situation to situation...not fighter to fighter vs fighter to fighter. I would LOVE to see in my post where I said Joppy was anything like Hagler???

But because it doesnt fit into your argument, you are choosing to go the straw man route with your point (google it).

Exactly...meaning both Joppy and Tito were out of the argument. Thank you...

Both are career MW's who lost to career WW's...so yes, the situation IS comparable. What is not comparable are the careers of the fighters involved...which was never argued in the first place.

And...read before jumping to conclusions.

Again you are the only one comparing Leonard - Tito and Joppy - Hagler. Stop the madness.

I compared their achievements (Tito and Joppy's). You decided to omit quoting that part because, again, it didnt fit into your arguement. In fact, I will do it again for you...

Joppy:

3 time WBA MW Champion. 8 title defenses. Career MW record = 27-4-1...with wins over Cherifi, Eastman, Duran, Green and Reid...among others. Losses to Hopkins, Trinidad, Taylor and Green.

Trinidad:

1 time WBA MW Champion. 0 title defenses. Career MW record = 3-2...with wins over Cherifi, Joppy and Mayorga. Losses to Wright and Hopkins.

So Im sorry, but they are not close (and Joppy's are actually quite good...better than average at the very least). And as I stated from the BEGINNING, Joppy is the higher ranked MW. Not the better fighter...not the higher ranked fighter...what is so hard to comprehend on that???

:huh

Never argued this (in fact I agree, but as you said, it plays an important role, but it is not the only factor as well...which was my argument in the first place)...again, you are trying to change my side of the argument to suit your agenda.

:-(

And this is you doing more of the same. Do you even understand that you can compare similar situations without comparing the participants in said situations??? I mean, it happens every day. Its not some radical new way of portraying a point.

And what is this past his peak Hagler you keep referring to??? He was 32 bro...and had just had two of his best wins in Mugabi and Hearns in the previous two fights. Atta way to again go the straw man argument route again!!!!

But the simple fact again is he is the more distinguished JMW. Take the names and the ages out and look at the other things. Accomplishments, title reigns, record, resume, etc. More goes into a decision about a weight class ranking then just "who beat who"...and that is the point.

Noone is arguing the greatness of Tito's win. The only idiots who do are the ones who like to use Tito's lack of a MW resume to attack Bernard Hopkins resume. Like I said, Tito beat Joppy better than anyone had before or since...and Joppy was a good fighter...that is saying something.

Different situation...as Duran had more than 5 fights at WW. Beat more fighters than just Palomino. And achieved more as well. Different fighter...and like you keep eluding to, a bad example to use in comparison to Tito.

You see what I mean now. Its that its more than just a h2h head wins. Its much more in fact. Just because a fighter lost (no matter how badly) to another fighter, doesnt trump everything that fighter did in his career, especially when its a hell of alot more than the other fighter.

Noone is arguing that Tito was the BETTER MW...what the original poster was asking was who was the higher ranked MW.

Think of it this way. Ricardo Mayorga beat Vernon Forrest twice at WW (while both were in their primes)...yet noone in their right mind would rank Mayorga higher in an all time sense.

If you take just one win, that is unfair to the losing fighter...because it ignores everything else he ever did. Its not a fair way at all...as I posted, Joppy's career at MW IS much more impressive then he often gets credit for. Tito's, tho spectacular, is just way too small a sample to even consider the two close.

To say one win out of five just suddenly erases the rest is (27-4-1, quite a few quality wins, 8 title defense, 3 time champion), again, unfair.

Again, I think you should go back and read it again. I was comparing the situations...NOT the fighters. I never made one mention of comparing the fighters...YOU DID.

Leonard W Hagler => Tito W Joppy....Not Leonard => Tito / Hagler => Joppy. Its a pretty simple thing to understand actually.

:-(

 

it's really hard to seperate the greatness of a fighter from his greatness at a certain weight.

if the criteria is resume/accomplishments/overall service-it kind of has to be joppy

if the criteria is H2H/talents shown at that division-it's clearly trinidad

as awesome as tito is, his best work was done at welter. at middle he doesn't have the resume to be ranked that highly

 

William Joppy ... Tito is only 1-2 at MW and biggest win was against William Joppy ... Joppy was a 2x champion and spent most of his career there.

 

I don't really get how Joppy can be ranked higher. It's not like his own resume is anything special, he certainly doesn't have a win that comes close to Trinidad's own destruction of him, and he was perfectly in his prime when Tito did this to him. Throw in knockouts of Mayorga and Cherifi for Tito as well. Joppy's longer stay at the weight is meaningless, because Tito was simply in a different class as a fighter. Sometimes you don't have to look any farther than that.

 

Its like talking to walls...

:wall

 

Here is an example of how every single poll on ESB goes...

Here is what you asked...

"Who ranks higher in your MW list (160 only)? Trinidad or Joppy?"

Here is what 90% of ESB reads...

"Which fighter do you like better? Trinidad or Joppy?"

I could ask this question...

"Who is taller, Valuev or Calzaghe?"

And 90% of ESB posters would read it like this...

"Who do you hate more, Valuev or Calzaghe?"

Be serious bro...polls on this site are the equivalent of asking a parent who their favorite kids are...your never really gonna get an honest answer!!!

:-(

 

Was this your intent from the beginning? To somehow connect this situation to Hatton being 44-1 at 140, Pac having a KO2 over him, and Pac ranking higher at 140 in your eyes.

Just wondering.

 

Yes, wasnt it obvious from the beginning? At the end of my first post in this thread I said "This is a loaded question"...looks like I (as well as a few others) hit it right on the head.