Who ranks higher on the all-time great list, Pacquiao or Holyfield?

Really? Spinks went to HW, Roy Jones (Won just against Ruiz, never further established), and then you have Charles, Moore, Fitzsimmons, etc. Historically it has been done with smaller man, and many old time HWs were cruiser weight in size. There's nothing really that difficult in jumping from CW to HW if you have the talent, skills, and ability (As well as heart). Had he been a LHW I might understand that reasoning more.

Pac went from 106 to 151 now. But really established himself as a Featherweight and somehow jumped himself to a Welterweight when he was probably seen as just having entered his prime. A great achievement, even if it's in a thin talent pool among all these spread out divisions.

I like Holy, but think Pac is clearly ahead personally.

I do agree Bowe-Lewis are really more of a challenge in a jump than anything Pac has faced in recent times, though. But Holyfield didn't win those bouts, and Pac did rise in weight successfully.

 

That's true, I definitely forgot Moorer. And Toney had some success and really beat Ruiz to win the HW championship. Steroids really made no difference in the matter (Not justifying). We even now have Adamek coming from LHW and having success now at HW. The one thing I'll give Holyfield is he did it in a golden age of HW fighting. He fought the best and beat a lot of the best fighters out their. His record is pretty stacked. We still can't deny, though, that others haven't done it. And when Moorer did it he did it during the same, and he was a LHW.

Pac's achievement in weight-jumping is much more unique, and seemingly more difficult.

 

Yup. About to say that myself.

Holyfield may have "only" one The World Title in two divisions, CW and HW, but look at those two divisions. One of them is a division, HW, that is UNLIMITED WEIGHT and has NO CATCHWEIGHTS. No care for Height or Weight. You just fight whatever beast is out there. No complaints. No, "he is to tall." I need a "catchweight."

Unless I'm wrong, but I don't remember Holyfield ever ducking or dodging anyone. Not even now.

Can anyone say the same for Pac?
Nope.


Hey Pac, what about a fight with Godzilla?
To tall. Maybe at a catchweight. No, To Tall.

Hey Evander, what about a fight with Godzilla?
that's what God wants me to do so I'll do it.

 

Who had to face the more dangerous opponents?

 

But I'm not wrong, am I?

Who needed catch-weights?

Who needed to get fighters at the right time?

Lower weight divisions aren't the same as the HW division.

When you are in the lower weight classes you have restricted weights. HW has non. Both fighters are given a restricted weight to make for the scales. There is non in the HW division.

 

Yes, that's part of it. Accepting the biggest challenges.

The harder road to take. Unless you want to say it was smarter on Pac's part for picking and choosing the right fighters, at the right time and at the right catchweights. Then yes, that's something too. However, Evander didn't have much choice in the matter at HW because there are no restrictions on height/weight. And he was in a great era for HWs.

Of course, maybe Evander could have tried to ask for catchweights. Get those fighters drained and ready to be taken.
It wasn't going to work though.


So you agree Holyfield fought the tougher opponents which makes it harder to win, harder to cement a "ATG" legacy.

 

The thing about size is true to a partial degree but moreso in theory than reality to my mind. Holyfield might have been faced with the alleged potential threat of size disadvantage, but Lewis and Bowe were the only ones that Holyfield faced who were able to gain a significant advantage by it. It isn't as though Evander routinely fought elite level super heavyweights week-in, week-out; Lewis and Bowe were the only two to have really existed up to that point.

Not to denigrate what he did - nearly taking a trilogy from a prime Bowe and pushing a prime Lewis so close to the wire when well past your own best is something to be bloody-well proud of.

It's fair to argue that he faced tougher opposition (although a ledger with Barrera, Morales, Marquez et al might prove otherwise to some) and that he was frequently outweighed. But Lewis and Bowe were the only two in that regard who really mattered. Unlike Foreman, Holmes, Douglas and Mercer, all of whom had varying shortcomings that balanced out any advantage in weight at the time Evander faced them.

 

Past Prime Morales who beat him in the first fight and in the second, was coming back down in weight and looked awful against Zahir Raheem. I think that should be noted.

JMM was very good but the first fight was a "Draw" and at least one of those fights is a debatable win even if Pac got the "SD, Win" in that second fight.

Corpse Oscar.

Post-KO'd Hatton.

Post-Plastered Cotto.

And all were in his division for a specific weight required to make. Holyfield no longer had that luxury when he moved up to HW.


Big George Foreman, who even though was past his youth, was still a beast of a Man and still was bigger and stronger than Holyfield...not to mention his power was still awesome. Which huge puncher, P4P, did Pac face like that of Big George?
Which fighter, P4P, was stronger than him like Foreman was against Holyfield?
Which fighter, top level that can be compared to Foreman, had that natural size advantage and showed it in their fight like Holyfield had against Foreman?

Of course the better argument would still stand with Bowe.
Bowe is greater than any opponent that Pac has faced as far as threat.

Holyfield, past his prime, still did beat Tyson. Not Tyson at his best but when debating Pac's competition for "name", we can throw that in there.


Pac's going to be rated high, he should be. What he has done, and I"m talking about his whole story from where he came from to get to where he is today is incredible. But we should still look at things carefully with him as well if we are going to do it with the other Champion in the discussion.

 

Good question. What Holyfield is doing now at 47 means nothing. I am rating everything before Toney. Toney destroyed him and he is just feasting on handpicked guys he can beat . I think Holyfield is greater p4p than Manny I think. At cruiserweight he was great, and moving up and competing against big guys was very impressive. Guys like Foreman,Tyson,Lewis,Holmes. Look at the names on Holyfields resume. Manny's is good, but not like Holyfield.

 

yeah but he can avoid certain fights and handpick the easier champs if he wants. Evander fought them all. They are comparable, but Evander's resume is incredible if you really look at it . Moorer, Foreman,Holmes,Lewis,Bowe,Tyson, etc etc

 

Popkins, I think what Caelum is trying to say is, if Pac is so great, why isn't he fighting at heavyweight? Then again, if Evander was so great, why was he fighting at the restricted cruiserweight division for so long? Why did he need Qawi to restrict his own weight in addition to having a clearly restricted height (Qawi obviously would've come in taller if allowed)? I think that's the point he's trying to make, Popkins. Maybe we should listen.