Who ranks higher on the all-time great list, Pacquiao or Holyfield?

Wrong again!

I think what he's trying to say is that a prime Fred "The Hammer" Williamson would defeat a prime Carl Weathers. Why? Cuz Carl only works his vanity muscles. All that extra bulk will do him no good against The Hammer. End of thread.

 

This is all okelly dokelly doo and so on, but you've kind of missed the point I was making. The remark I made about Pacquaio facing Barrera etc etc was an offhand one. I wasn't on about Pacquaio, nor was I disputing Holyfield's level of comp.

You made a point (to Popkins I think) about Holyfield not having the advantage of demanding catchweights and so forth, heavyweight as it is having no upper weight limit. My point was that this 'disadvantage' only really had any real significance when he fought Lewis and Bowe, seen as they were the only prime, elite-level super heavies with the means to implement their respective size advantages fully. That's all. Were Pacquaio to campaign at 154 knocking ten bells of elephant **** out of bigger opponents who had size but nothing else over him, the same logic would apply.

 

No, what I was saying was that why did Holyfield NEVER need a catch-weight, yet Pac did?

Could you imagine if Pac was in Holyfield's position...make him have Holyfield's body...6'2+, 200+ pounds and in the era Holyfield fought.
Roach would make sure Pac is allowed new rules for catchweights in the HW division.
And it is arguable if he would have fought any of the Big Boys in their prime. Bowe? No Way.
Fight Lewis while being yourself past your prime? No Way.


Holyfield was in the low 200's in his early stages as a HW and fought bigger guys. When he met Bowe he was around 215+ and Bowe was around 235+ (and at 6'5). I'll have to watch the start of the fight again later to be exact.

Holyfield was giving up a ton of weight for the fight. There was no weight limit needed to be met like the lower weight divisions.

Holyfield doesn't complain about such things.

Holyfield also doesn't pick and choose his opponents carefully. If you are out there and you are the best, he wants you.


Pac: Foreman was "to tall."
That's where that comes from and his fans saying it is unfair for Pac to have to fight tall opponents, like Paul Williams.


Pac avoided Shane Mosley. Remember that. A Past Prime Shane Mosley.
Holyfield would have never avoided that fight had he been in Pac's position.


My argument is to simply make a case for Holyfield and not to overlook what he has done and what road he took which was to Fight The Best No Matter What.

 

I understand but Who has Pac fought that has used their size against him?

I'm not sure who is really out there right now that could use their size to their advantage against Pac at the weights Pac fights like Bowe and Lewis...at least not prime. Although maybe Shane could have used his strength but that fight was past over.

For Holyfield, even Big George Foreman, although past his youth, was still incredibly strong, powerful, a big threat, and could use his size to his advantage.

 

Holyfield. This is not even a rational conversation to have.

 

:---(

 

....................:good

 

The point is ******* you spend every moment jacking off over Pacquaio's weight jumping despite the fact the vast majority of the time he was the bigger man, which is proven by the pre-ring weigh ins. Can't you get it through your thick as pig **** skull that weight hopping isn't quite as impressive if your nearly always the bigger man?

A small heavyweight fighting much bigger men, is clearly a tougher feat if all other factors remain equal and vastly underrated around here

Not that Pacquaio's achievement's aren't impressive but they need some perspective

I haven't picked either way, its a close call and I'm not big on lists and prefer to rank fighters around similar weight classes

 

Spinks/Moorer/Jones/Toney weren't fighting 240lb ATG monsters like Bowe/Lennox, they were fighting in a different weight class pretty much. Holy has bumped heads with more in that weight class and with more success. Hasn't he got the record for beating the highest number or HW Lineal Champions?

And if we are talking about linear titles then no Flyweight World Champ has become lineal/linear Welter champ, maybe Pac can become the first :yep

 

An arguement can also me made that Pac really never had much of a size disadvantage. Hes clearly been well suited in the weight classes hes fought in, where as Holyfield was not, and often had to fight himself out of being pushed around so much.
Also the timing of some of Pac's opponents has to be brought into question. For example, who offered more of a challenge, the old 250 pound Foreman to Holyfield, or the weight drained ODLH to Pac?
For me its Holyfield and not even close.

 

The point is mute given beating Michael Jennings, 5th best WW in Britain, does not a WW champ make. But ok, no Flyweight champ before has ever won a WBOgus belt at WW

 

a.) Again mate, I'm not talking about what Pacquaio has done but making a theoretical application of logic. His weight-jumping exploits are amazing but difficult to place into real context IMO.

b.) True. He was also painstakingly slow, immobile and susceptible to anyone who applied the right tactics concerning movement - shortcomings that played right into Evander's hands and thus prevented George from posing the overall threat(s) that Bowe and Lewis did, regardless of his size and strength.

All true, and all completely irrelevant to what I was saying. Here comes the part where I expend more futile energy explaining that I wasn't talking about Pacquaio.