Who ranks higher on the Heavyweight list - Evander Holyfield or Rocky Marciano?

If I would have the talent of Muhammed Ali I probably would rank higher than both.

 

Marciano


Better fighter

Better Accomplishments

IMO

 

Marciano for me.

You can argue depth for Evander but I give more points for dominance and Marciano did in effect clean out the division something Holyfield never really did simply because he couldn't hold on to the title long enough to pursue a long reign.

Head to Head is a different story but in terms of greatness gotta give Rocky his due.

 

so much for your duran arguments!

 

I see your point. I am talking about weights and opposition. This is why it is tough to rank someone over another person. Careers are so different. Although for people to think Marciano would walk through someone like Foreman or Bowe or Lennox is unrealistic.

 

If you read the discussion on the other thread and really read what I wrote you would know that this goes along with my Duran argument. Fighting and beating the best over a guy who was dominant but didn't fight the same opposition. Although Marciano fought and beat greats, regardless of them being older. Duran at lightweight did not fight greats.

 

should be unanimous

 

as overrated as he is, the rock by a good bit.

 

Swap their eras around,and what conclusions do we draw ?

 

While not undefeated Holyfield's level of competition and longevity completely blows Marciano's out the water, he was also competing against the greatest SHW era of all time. How would Rocky have done against Bowe, Tyson, Lewis, Moorer while competing well into his late 30s?

 

Interestingly Holyfield's record in the modern heavyweight divison is (I think anyway?) somewhere about the mark of 25 wins (13 TKO's - think Douglas was the only heavy he actually properly KO'd?), 10 losses (one of which should of been a win in my book), 2 draws (one of which was a clear defeat in my book) and one No-Decision/No-Contest (which was a stoppage due to a cut eye - so maybe a loss on a cut in truth).

He was given troublesome distance tussles by horendously out of shape and really (REALLY) old men in Foreman and Holmes against both of whom he faded late (which is a NO NO against Marciano) Also faded late in fights versus Bowe and Moorer - he was only too willing to trade with big puncher's (again not really advisable versus Marciano).

He had some legendary nights (even in defeat) and some memorable wins but if you look at his record against his best opponents : 2-0 against Tyson was career defining but 1-2 versus Bowe? 1-1 against Moorer (a blown up light heavy)? 1-0-1 against Lewis (and should've been 2-0 really)? 1-1-1 versus John Ruiz?? All show that, if at times he was the best, he was not really the dominant heavyweight of the era - even if he was probably the most loved. Also for those who credit Holyfield with being a 4-time champion - this is baloney - utter baloney - the 'titles' he won versus Tyson were basically a paper crown (clearly NOT the lineal title) and the 'belt' he won versus Ruiz has even less cedibility (no way was that a title fight) - Lennox Lewis was THE MAN at the time no question - although at the time the lineal status was in a little bit of a mess as it was - so yeah incredible effort to beat Riddick Bowe (who had let his condition got to pot but there is a lot to question about Evander's career if you look at it

beat ANCIENT PINKY
beat ANCIENT DOKES
beat HOPELESSLY OUT OF SHAPE AND DIVING DOUGLAS
beat HOPELESSLY OUT OF SHAPE 42 YEAR OLD MAN FOREMAN
beat TRIALHORSE (3RD REPLACEMENT) BERT COOPER - AND WAS ON THE VERGE OF BEING STOPPED BY HIM
beat AND STRUGGLED BADLY WITH ANCIENT OUT OF SHAPE LARRY HOLMES
LOST TO RIDDICK BOWE WHEN BOTH WERE AT ABSOLUTE BEST
LOST TO MICHAEL MOORER
GOT STOPPED BY BOWE
TWICE BEAT THE SHADOW OF MIKE TYSON - HAD TO BUTT HIS WAY TO A WIN IN ONE OF THOSE
BEAT CLEARLY TWICE BY LENNOX LEWIS
WON LOST AND DREW WITH RUIZ
BUTTED HIS WAY TO A WIN AGAINST RAHMAN
BACK TO BACK DEFEATS TO BYRD, TONEY AND DONALD SIGNALLED THE DOWNSLIDE

 

Good post. Holyfield's career defining moments, a win over Bowe, and a TKO win over a still dangerous Tyson must be viewed as quality wins over hall of fame opponents. The Mercer win, which you did not list was a great night for Holyfield fans. However you are right. Holyfield lost more often than not when matched vs the other elite fighters, and was upset by Moorer. Rocky from a legacy standpoint must rank higher.

 

i liked your argument in the other thread, it's just that your comment in this one is difficult to reconcile with it...

"If Evander fought guys his size all the time he would have been more consistent and dominant"

- firstly, he didn't. secondly, this is equivalent to duran staying at 135-147 his entire career (and spending significantly more time at 135, or simply retiring as a lightweight). was holyfield's cruiserweight division stronger than duran's lightweight division? you'll probably say yes, but the difference isn't great in any case.

"but he fought when the heavyweights were getting bigger like Bowe and Lennox and fought well with them"

- yeah, and it's a great achievement to fight well with guys who are much bigger, even if you don't end up winning. like hagler! holyfield had five chances to defeat a massive heavyweight, and won once... i personally see his performances against bowe and lewis as real positives on holyfield's resume... it just surprises me that you do too? surely you can't just be in the ring with these guys, you have to beat them?

"I think Evander is overall greater Fought everyone he could"

- i agree that fighting everyone you can is the mark of a true champion. didn't think this was enough for you, though, thought you had to beat the majority? holyfield is 0-2 against lewis, 1-2 against bowe, 1-1 against moorer, 2-0 against tyson and 1-0 against foreman. you do the maths, just about broke even.

i don't want to change the topic of this thread, but your comment (or at least how it was phrased) confused me as to what you think's important! sorry if i've missed your point, just curious.

as for the thread, i'd have them separated by a place at the least, and four at the most. ordinarily i'd have marciano a couple of places above holyfield. read an interesting comment somewhere by someone who includes cruiserweight accomplishments as heavyweight accomplishments... not sure what i think about that, but am leaning towards not doing that. if i were to, this would be closer, though.