Who ranks higher...Wlad Klitschko or Sonny Liston?

Probably, but it doesn't help him much when some of his better wins, like Ibragimov, just go away. Byrd is his best win, in my opinion, and it seems to be the majority opinion, and I think it's not just a matter of quality but that he went on and did things like the Tua performance. Then you've got another of his better wins in Haye

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. He might not come back at all, like Ibragimov. And poor Volo, if Haye does end up in a fight with Vitali and not only loses but loses without looking good, then his older brother's just beaten his best win in years at 41. atsch It'll be another retroactive hit to his quality of opposition, deserved or not.

Some say with him it's only that he's come along at the right time. I don't agree. But, regardless, from where I'm sitting, that's a double-edged legacy sword, because cementing his has been a gatdamn obstacle course, as it's panned out. Look at Liston, now, my Liston trolling aside, what would have been the case with him if all he personally did was the same but Patterson never fought again. People would've perhaps gone "Meh, the wars with Ingo ruined him and his heart wasn't in it anymore and he obviously wasn't very good anymore or else he'd have done better. Liston's best win is over a shell of a small heavyweight he matched up with well." But, now they get to say "Hey, Patterson arguably should've won a major world title again and he had some of his higher quality wins after that." A lot of Volo's best guys aren't doing much after, and it's not all an issue of the quality of the guys themselves, I don't think. But, it's happening, just the same, unfortunately.

...I don't know what my original point was. I'm very sleepy. I think I went off a bit, there.

 

I agree with this but I'd also say that another part of the problem is that the opponents come from nowhere.

There isn't enough talent for one heavyweight champion to build a good resume but with two brothers dominating and fighting 6 times a year, not only do their opponents disappear, the fighters they are replaced with are horribly unproven.

Robert Helenius was considered the third best heavyweight in the world but what has he done to deserve that? He made his name by beating a shot Brewster, just got by Oloukun, beat the shot Peter, beat the shot Lyakovich and suddenly he's the third best in the world? No way. The Chisora fight showed how poor he was and the excuse of an injury does not discount the fact he's a poor fighter.

He's an unproven fighter. There is nobody out there for him to prove himself against, in all honesty. Had he beaten Chisora cleanly, he'd have got a title shot well before he was ready, he'd have been beaten and then he'd probably be inactive ans go back to beating no-hopers. This is the same path that Adamek will go back to, the same one Thompson, Arreola followed. It's just the same over and over again.

Seth Mitchell is being talked about as a title challenger but why? Because he beat Ibragimov impressively. Chisora was signed to fight Wlad because he beat Sam Sexton twice, but Sexton is probably the 5th best heavyweight in Britain. Arreola beats Eric Molina in a round, gets hurt in the same round, and is talked about as Wlad's next opponent. Eddie Chambers beats Sam Peter and then Alexander Dimitrenko and gets a world title shot. Dimitrenko gets a gift against British journeyman Michael Sprott and is considered a top 5 heavyweight and in line for a title shot.

It's horrible. There is no testing ground for any of these heavyweights. There are no good, tough reliable contenders out there who the rising heavyweights can test themselves against. As soon as they get a decent win, they're thrown into a world title fight. It's ridiculous. Dereck Chisora has had something like 34 fights in his entire career, as a pro and amateur, beats Sam Sexton and Wlad considers him a worthy challenger? That's ridiculous.

In short, I agree with you. These fighters come from nowhere, they get a title shot and then they disappear again. All of this means that even though the Klitschkos are racking up impressive records numerically, it's against an unproven list of opponents.

 

Especially if wlad beat him again in a competitive fight.

It would give him a dance partner then to gauge his class against.

Plus haye would have wins over ruiz, valuev and vitali so his own stock would rise.

I think solis needs to win a comeback fight and get himself ranked because his style (aggressive tank built counter puncher) should cause wlad fits.

 

You know, I have list. I was arranging the heavyweight champions/major titlists, in order, by various different statistics. And, I know this doesn't speak directly to the quality of the fighter or their opposition-of course it doesn't-but I find this an interesting indication of the era's pros, now. If my arrangement was correct, if you list all the major titlists (I did use the WBO, also, the entire list, despite not considering it 100% on par with the others until after Volo's first reign, or so) of the division, and arrange them by number of total career victories, there are 42 different spots, in total. Three of Volo's most noteworthy non-Byrd opponents reside at 35 (Chagaev), 37 (Haye), and 39 (Ibragimov). That's out of 42. Two have retired, for whatever you think of the permanence of Haye's, and one of them is seemingly in the twilight of his career. Volo sits tied with Tony Tucker, at eleventh place. I know, it's just a statistical bit of yada yada, but I can't help but think there's something telling in there somewhere... and it doesn't quite sit well with me.

 

I...don't know what that means, exactly, Mc. :err or :twisted: or :yep or :deal... How am I supposed to know which emoticon to go with if I don't know what it means? :twisted:

 

atsch McGrain, don't you know you can't do that **** without summoning ESB Winslow?

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I rate Liston as the better fighter, but think that Vlad had a more dominant title reign, and thus made more of an impact on boxing history. Too bad Sonny couldn't get the Patterson fight a few years earlier.

 

This is a good question and probably deserves its own thread.

It affects people's ranking of Wlad a lot. It is mentioned over and over in this forum. I don't know why. Somehow, having a great number two fighter that never fights the number one fighter really twists and skews people's rankings of Wlad. What if Vitali didn't exist? then you'd have only Wlad dominating the division, but what difference does that make to Wlad's ranking? I don't get it. He's the same fighter he would be if Vitali didn't exist. Watch his videos. He's a great heavyweight. Forget about his brother.

It's almost like we think having two great fighters at the top is a curse and we penalize both. It's not a curse! It's a blessing! We should embrace it!

 

Wlad will rank higher but Sonny would have wrecked him ..

 

I consider Liston an underchiever and Wlad unproven. Dominance goes to Wlad though quality of opponents goes to Wlad. TBF the only opponent I think could take Wlad is Williams and even then that's pushing it especially matching him with Wlad during his days with Steward. Both great talents but not proven enough for me to consider ATGs. Yes Wlad would've splattered Liston but it was still a defining fight for Liston and to do it to a great fighter twice in 1 round is unheard of. Liston for wins over Machen, Folley, and Patterson x2 which Wlad will never match or compare because his era is incredibly poor. Even H2H I'd go with Liston.

 

20 to 19 in favour of Klitschko atsch

 

Pretty simple.

H2H - Wlad
Career - Wlad