Who ranks higher...Wlad Klitschko or Sonny Liston?

1) Liston does have the "Sanders/Brewster loses" in 3 of his 4 defeats. 1a) Marshall a guy that was 18-5-2 that was KO'd 4 of his 5 losses defeated him.
1b) Ali beat him in the 1st round in their rematch and regardless if the fix was in or not, he still lost in the 1st round. That's his problem and he had to live with that.
1c) Martin beats him. Liston was a little old at this point (37), but he should still have beaten the likes of him.

2) Patterson is not head and shoulders above Haye, Byrd and Chagaev. If Patterson fought these 3 it would be very evenly matched. Quite possibly he would probably lose to one of them (if not more than 1) if he had to fight all 3.

 

I think Wlad has passed Liston in accomplishments.

And I can't say I think anyone that Liston defeated--Patterson, Folley, Machen, Williams, Harris, etc--would be likely to give Klitschko all that tough of a fight.

 

Lets not forget the injuries and ailments Sonny had.

Bursitis in his left shoulder.
Torn shoulder muscles.
Tendonitis in his wrists.
Knee injury he suffered while training before the second Patterson fight.
Broken nose.
Broken jaw.

And the claim by his personal physician that he was a chronic hypochondriac.

 

A symptom of Sonny's hypochondria was apparently thinking he had Bursitis in his left shoulder.
Torn shoulder muscles.
Tendonitis in his wrists.
Knee injury he suffered while training before the second Patterson fight.
Broken nose.
Broken jaw.
Was eight feet tall, 400 pounds of pure muscle, had an enormous ****, could shoot thunderbolts from his eyes, fireballs from his arse, was 140-years-old and justifiably could lace his gloves with blinding chemicals due to his handicaps. Damn that hypochondria. DAMN, DAMN, DAMN!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap5Sw3xsZhU[/ame]

 

Excellent Point.

To put this in context, suppose Mike Tyson never had an Evander Holyfield, Riddick Bowe or Lennox Lewis during his reign. All he had was the supporting cast of the 80s and 90s. Even if he lost to Buster and went to prison. If he came out he'd pretty much rule with impunity.

Or better yet say Holyfield never had a Tyson, Bowe or Lewis during their respective reigns. The potential for great wins or challenges wouldn't exist in the same way we know them to exist. Yes he was inconsistent but it took a very talented fighter to beat Evander so he's likely to rule with impunity if the level of opposition was similar to the Wlad's.

Now let's look at Liston. He had a Muhammad Ali to deal with; that alone is a significant barrier to becoming a Heavyweight Champion or even keeping your title. This applies to everybody.

Liston's "stats" as in title defenses, don't match up to Klitschko so the question remains does Liston's quality of opposition outweigh Wlad's consistency and dominance in the same manner that Ali's quality of opposition in some eyes outweigh Louis's unrivaled dominance and title defenses?

At this time no. Perhaps after a few years I can make a reassessment about this but I'm not prepared to give Wlad the edge over Liston on the basis that Liston's dominance while tearing through the heavyweight ranks and quality of opposition outweighs Wlad's current dominance.

 

Its close now.

Wlad has dominance, Liston has overall resume.

I think Liston beats Wlad h2h, but I think they are reasonably equal h2h against others. Wlad's a beast and is terribly underrated in this sense.

Now, because I tend to rank great wins really highly, I'll give Liston the edge for Patterson, but that is Sonny's margin. Few more title defenses, and a couple more top 5 wins, and it just won't be enough anymore.

So my answer, right now is Sonny Liston ranks higher. But I would bet money that when Wlad retires that will not be the case.

 

In 2004 it would be Liston and not close. In 2008 Liston but Wlad's closing in. In 2012 I'm leaning toward Wlad. Since his last loss he's taken five 0's, knocked almost everyone out, unified titles three times, hasn't even had so much as a one judge go against him in any of the four bouts that went to a decision and I don't buy into how bad his level of competition has been. I that's become completely exaggerated. Wlad makes the best of them look a lot less than they are.

 

I think Haye can beat Vitali now. A slower and less athletic fighter won't be able to exploit how much slower Vitali is now. He can be gotten to. Everybody says how he's less vulnerable than Wlad because of his chin being better but I don't think that's the case anymore if it ever was during Vitali's comeback and I'm not sure it has been. Vitali is much more beatable for Haye than Wladimir, imo. I want to see that fight.

 

Can you post that list please? Assuming you weren't typing a bunch of gibberish for laughs to see who would bite.

 

:twisted: I don't appreciate the insinuation, Klozoff. No, I was arranging them with different stats, because I thought it would be interesting in comparing them to see what I might find and also found it interesting that some of the better recent titlists, as far as their total package is concerned, of the past few years have registered on the low end, distinctly different from the two guys ultimately running the scene and ending their runs. I think it's telling, like they don't have the volume in pro rounds to find their technical identity and polish it up to where it could be. There's some good fighters there, but I'd like to see them working their method out more and against more styles. I also think some of these guys would be in better condition if they were fighting more, no matter who they're fighting.

Anyway, the list was just done and on a quick glance at their official, verified boxrec records. That's not to say they're necessarily complete, but we know the recent ones are pretty easily done up. Obviously, several of the guys had a large part of, if not most of their fights at lower weights, like Charles, Tunney and RJJ. Anyway, here:

Heavyweight Champions by most career victories:

1. Ezzard Charles: 93
2. Primo Carnera: 89 (1NWS)
3. Gene Tunney (15NWS): 80
4. George Foreman: 76
5. Larry Holmes: 69
6. Max Baer(1NWS)/Bob Fitzsimmons (2NWS): 68
7. Jack Johnson (14 NWS): 67
8. Joe Louis: 66
9. Jack Dempsey (4NWS): 65
10. Greg Page: 58
11. Wladimir Klitschko/Tony Tucker: 57
12. Muhammad Ali/Max Schmeling/Oliver McCall: 56
13. Floyd Patterson/Tim Witherspoon/Roy Jones Junior: 55
14. Michael Dokes: 53
15. Michael Moorer: 52
16. Jim Braddock (5 NWS)/Jersey Joe Walcott/Shannon Briggs: 51
17. Sonny Liston/Mike Tyson/Nikolay Valuev/Henry Akinwande/Hasim Rahman: 50
18. Rocky Marciano/Trevor Berbick/Herbie Hide: 49
19. Tommy Morrison: 48
20. Tony Tubbs: 47
21. Tommy Burns/Ernie Terrell: 46
22. James Bonecrusher Smith/Evander Holyfield/John Ruiz/Vitali Klitschko: 44
23. Pinklon Thomas/Riddick Bowe: 43
24. Ken Norton/Corrie Sanders: 42
25. Mike Weaver/Chris Byrd/Lennox Lewis: 41
26. Jimmy Ellis/Bruce Seldon/Frank Bruno: 40
27. John L. Sullivan/Jack Sharky(1NWS)/James Buster Douglas: 38
28. Oleg Maskaev/Ray Mercer: 36
29. Lamon Brewster: 35
30. John Tate/Samuel Peter: 34
31. Gerrie Coetzee: 33
32. Joe Frazier: 32
33. Marvin Hart (2NWS)/Michael Spinks: 31
34. Francesco Damiani: 30
35. Ruslan Chagaev: 28
36. Jess Willard (3NWS)/Ingemar Johansson/Leon Spinks: 26
37. David Haye/Siarhei Liakhovich: 25
38. Alexander Povetkin: 24
39. Sultan Ibragimov: 22
40. James J. Jeffries: 19
41. James J. Corbett (3NWS): 14
42. Michael Bentt: 11

 

Boxed m8, you should put in brackets how many of them wins were VS guys under 200LBS And under 180LBS.

But nice list - i love stats :thumbsup

 

Ugh. Solis is a slow, flat-footed, one-dimensional plodder. No problem as far as I can see.

 

If he never trains properly again that's exactly how he'll be remembered but I see potential there.