Who rates higher all time Jeffries or Dempsey?

Good point, except Williams turned 39 that August.

 

In both sports average or typical competitors slip in performance with age or layoffs, but certain outstanding performers do not necessarily show a similar slippage.

 

Joe Louis named Williams as the greatest ,but it was obviously Ty Cobb. Do you think batting requires the same degree of stamina as Boxing for 20+ rounds ?++

 

Ahem:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Bradman

Just bein' contrary, but still

 

I wouldn't claim secret bouts, but there were exhibitions and who knows about "shooting match" sparring sessions.

As for Odd, he mentions that Fitz fought an exhibition with Sharkey in December, 1901,

In 1902 Odd mentions Fitz being in Chicago "engaged to take on all comers at one of the leading theatres. That he gave good value for money is shown by the fact that in one evening alone he stopped no less than seven ambitious young heavyweights, each of whom weighed over 200 pounds. The largest stood 6' 7 1/2" and scaled 240 pounds." (page 194)

Note the word "alone"--that would seem to indicate this was a several times occurrence. Hard to judge quality of opposition, but doing well or upsetting Fitz would be a great way for a young fellow to make a name for himself. Whatever, Fitz was in the ring and not rusting on the sidelines.

Odd mentions that in training for the Jeff fight Fitz had Hank Griffin as a sparring partner.

"Size discrepancy"

This doesn't matter in heavyweight boxing. That Dempsey would only have had 15 or so lbs. on Fitz while Jeff had over 45 doesn't mean anything except Dempsey was much smaller than Jeffries.

 

No. Batting requires reflexes and coordination.

But old geezers can display stamina also. Carlos Lopes (born 2-18-1947) won the Olympic gold medal in the 1984 marathon. In 1985, at 38, Lopes set a world record for the marathon which stood for 12 years.

 

I'm talking about fights not exhibitions with mugs on a stage. You seem to be trying very hard not to accept that Fitzsimmons had not had a fight in 2 years when he re-matched Jeffries. Size always matters ,don't kid yourself about that, 47lbs is a huge disadvantage especially when you are 39 years old and conceding 12 years!

 

Fitz's prime isn't the question. It is whether he was better than a prime Jack Sharkey when he fought Jeff. I think the evidence points to his being better.

 

But he wasn't being punched in the face was he.

 

Who is disputing that it is an advantage to be bigger and a disadvantage to be smaller. But the fact that Jeff was big is just a fact of life and nothing to hold against him.

I mentioned once that there is a film on you tube of a rhino pushing around a buffalo. It doesn't matter if p4p the buffalo would have done better. It was in fact smaller and so it bit the dust. The lesson isn't something about p4p but that a buffalo had best not tangle with a much larger rhino.

The whole sparring deal was what you brought up when I mentioned that Sugar Ray Leonard laid off and then came back to beat Hagler. Leonard hadn't had an official fight either.

I don't disagree that Fitz hadn't had an official fight in two years. I disagree with dismissing Fitz as an opponent on account of that.

 

I agree that you have to be careful when talking about a fighter of this period having been inactive.

Some of the exhibitions of the day were short fights in all but name, and some were very tame affairs.

I think that some of these "inactive fighters" (Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Willard) were in fact active in all but name.

 

I think the jury is still out on that.
Going into the Dempsey fight Sharkey had beaten :
Renault
Maloney x2
Risko
Gorman
Godfrey
Wills
In the previous 16 months and had won his last 13 fights . He was the second ranked heavyweight , just behind Dempsey.
That Sharkey was better than the 39 years old 2 years retired Fitz ,Jeffries rematched imo.

 

He was skilled and great for the eras he fought in. Simply put the eras that followed (30s, 40s, 50s, etc) showed more and more advancements in skill. Fighting shifted from one punch every 30 seconds to punching in combinations at a faster pace because of decreased rounds.