Who rates higher all time Jeffries or Dempsey?

I'm not a fan of Corbett's he was a cynical manipulator and his record is very underwhelming imo.
He is famous for fights he lost.

 

Corbett actually meet with Jackson face to face and discussed a rematch. Corbett wanted the fight in New Orleans or Jacksonville, two cites where he knew the live gate would be good ( which is where all the money was made back then ) as that is where he defeated John L Sullivan and Charlie Mitchell.

Peter Jackson didn't accept those terms and wanted a venue in the North.

 

Ad Nausea, so you tell us....and you are wrong

The facts are Jeffries did fight Hank Griffin, a black contender as champion in 1901. Griffin was a known fighter, getting the better of Jack Johnson in the same year. So there you have it, Jeffries as champion broke the color line. Had he lost via KO, you have anew championed. End of.

It is also a fact that Jeffries mentioned Jack Johnson as a possible challenger post-Munroe in 1904.

If a Reno like a purse was out there for Jeffries to fight Johnson in 1904, he could have taken it. What fighters say and what they do when a large purse is there often change. While the promoter and venue obviously have a say, things can change. For example, Jeffries vs Johnson was in fact supposed to take place in California. It was canceled, then quickly moved to Reno Nevada on short notice.

In a similar fashion if Dempsey signed to meet WIlls, but N.Y. State said no, why not move the fight? The answer, Dempsey, and his promoter knew how the vote would be and they did not want to face Wills...anywhere.

 

Corbett would not fight Jackson north of the Mason Dixon line, in fact he would not fight him anywhere.He knew very well Jackson did not feel he would get a fair shake in the deep south proposing to fight him only there was a pretext, a way of getting out of the fight.Jackson said he would fight Corbett anywhere else including the UK.
Corbett was a racist arsehole whose credentials as heavyweight champ were as shallow as his principles.

 

The Griffin affair was a 4 round exhibition.

Do you want me to post a few hundred Jeffries racist quotes stating he would never fight ****** ,a **** ,a black skunk?That he would never take a chance on losing his title to a black man? What would be the point? You wouldn't accept them and everyone else here already knows Jeffries would never defend against a man of colour.
Do you know that before the fight could go on at Reno Tex Rickard had to negotiate a settlement with book makers for gambling debts Jeffries had welched on? Reminds me of someone else that!

 

Corbett actually meet with Jackson face to face and discussed a rematch. Corbett wanted the fight in New Orleans or Jacksonville, two cites where he knew the live gate would be good ( which is where all the money was made back then ) as that is where he defeated John L Sullivan and Charlie Mitchell.

Peter Jackson didn't accept those terms and wanted a venue in the North.

Many big fights were in the south. I never heard of anyone attacked in the ring by the crowd. A challenger does not dictate the terms unless he's the main draw. Jackson let his opportunity go by. Did Jackson have a large purse offer for Corbett in the UK?

PS: Peter Jackson was a well linked gentleman. The press says so. He wasn't a magnet for controversy. IMO, if he won cleanly he'd get the nod as the winner in the New Orleans or Jacksonville. Whatever purse was offered, he blew it.

 

Much has been made of this poll showing Gibbons preferred by the "people" over Greb. Well, I found it, and this is what it is. This is from The Evening Independent of St. Petersburg, Florida, March 13, 1922, Page 7.

The article is by Billy Evans. Excerpts:

"In a referendum of the fight fans held by more than 500 client newspapers of the NEA Service, Harry Wills, the colored fighter, emerged the winner.
"The contest in each paper paper covered a period of one week. It was anything but a walkaway for Wills as he was hard pressed by Tommy Gibbons, th knockout king.
"The total Vote for Wills was 131,073. Gibbons trailed him by 6000. Bill Brennan, who had twice fought Dempsey, suffered a knockout a knockout on each occasion, was third choice. Bob Martin, the A. E. F. champion was fourth.
"Although neither Willard nor Carpentier were placed on the ballot, both fighters recieved a goodly number of of votes. Carpentier led Willard by about 3,000, proving the fight fans of this country liked the showing of the French champion against Dempsey much better than that of Willard.
"In a way the result was a bit of a surprise, as Tommy Gibbons was generally picked as the fighter who would receive the most votes."

There is a long discussion of why the writer thought an interview by his manager Eddie Kane may have hurt Gibbons in the poll, ending with:

"Kane, according to the interview, said he didn't believe Tommy was quite ready for champion Jack. He even went further and stated that he believed a year from now Gibbons' chance to win would be much better, and that he intended to bide his time."
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Well, was it a push poll? Yes. It had names on a ballot, as the "neither Willard nor Carpentier were placed on the ballot" reveals. I have no way of knowing if Greb was listed.

What does it reveal about the public preferring Gibbons to Greb?

Well, if you notice, the poll ran for seven days. It was published in this newspaper on March 13, 1922. On the same page as the article on the poll results there was the preview of that night's fight between Greb and Gibbons--

"GREB AND GIBBONS TO TRY FOR KAYO"

"A decisive result is hoped for tonight in the clash at Madison Square Garden between Tom Gibbons of St. Paul and Harry Greb of Pittsburgh."

It goes on to explain Gibbons was the favorite because of superior size.

Saying this poll shows that "the people" preferred Gibbons to Greb as an opponent for Dempsey is much worse than just an over-the-top extrapolation. It is an outright falsehood. The poll was taken and released before the 1922 fight in which Greb defeated Gibbons.

*there is a lot that is interesting here. There seems to have been a major effort to build up Gibbons as the next challenger to Dempsey. He is puffed up as the "knockout king" although his KO victims were mainly tomato cans.

Wills was coming off the DQ loss to Tate in January, so his stock should have been at its lowest ebb, and perhaps was. I imagine this poll was designed to show that the public was behind Gibbons getting the first shot. But it failed to even do that.

I assume the Greb fight was also supposed to cement Gibbons' standing as the outstanding challenger. All this went to the dogs when Greb won easily.

With Greb adding his impressive and one-sided victory over Tunney in May, the question of why Greb wasn't given a shot at Dempsey is even more salient.

Also, it is odd that Gibbons' manager, Eddie Kane, is quoted as saying he wanted to wait a year to take on Dempsey, as Gibbons was four years older and the more experienced. Hard to see how an extra year would help his chances. It sounds more like Kane knew Gibbons had no hope and intended to milk a contender's role for all it was worth with set-up matches.

 

"What did Wills do to deserve the number one ranking?"

Beat all the contenders who were willing to get into the ring with him, both black and white.

Ignoring the impact the color line had on his list of opponents is carrying water for the racists who set up the color line.

 

The poll quoted was taken before Greb fought Gibbons in 1922.

Also, names were given to choose from. That will alter the results versus just an open poll in which you supply your own names.

On Brennan, I think in only one was an official decision rendered. So most folks would only know them as no-decisions. It appears in reading from the era, that the ND rule really hurt Greb as he wasn't a big puncher. Interestingly, by KO'ing setups, and so getting a rep (laughable in retrospect) as a "Knockout king" Gibbons tried to build support as a title challenger.

Frankly, it appears he was never all that successful.

 

You may be right but how do we know it was them who would not get into the ring with him? I read a contemporary article criticising Wills for not meeting the top white contenders,maybe it was him who avoided them?

 

Let's get this straight. When it comes to determining who Wills fought the excuses is white guys wouldn't fight him because of the color line. But when it comes to the black guys that Dempsey fought it's "Ahh there was no protest from the public against mixed raced bouts! Dempsey was just scared! BAH!"

Double standards afff

 

the bottom line difference for me between Jeff and Dempsey is that Jeff drew the color line as champion, but did not draw the color line as a contender. Therefore he ended up fighting some top black opponents, and he ended up losing to one.

The irony of his career is that if he hadn't drawn the color line as champion and defended against Johnson in 1904, he would probably have had a decent shot at winning, although I certainly don't know what would have happened.

By not defending against Johnson he set up the circumstances for his eventual defeat by Johnson, and his devaluation in atg heavyweight lists.

In fairness to Dempsey, he didn't draw the color line pre-contender, fighting John Lester Johnson and a couple of others. But once he started moving up, he drew the color line both as a contender and as the champion.

Whatever the excuses, Dempsey ended up hiding behind a stronger color line than the one Jeffries set up.

The bottom line is that there were two divisions back then, the white one and the black one, with the color line in between. Jeff is undefeated in the white side of the division and fought the best of that group. Jeff also fought several name black fighters and his one loss is to a black fighter.

Dempsey never fought a top black heavyweight, and he lost a number of times in the white side of the division.

Whatever one thinks of Jeffries and where he rates, Dempsey accomplished less.

 

Yeah, Dempsey signing to fight Wills is so much worse than Jeffries calling black men dirty ******s, coons, or whatever else and declaring it's a disgrace to defend the title against a black man.

 

"there was no protest from the public against mixed raced bouts? Dempsey was just scared."

You finally hit the nail on the head.

The very poll you earlier cited had Wills winning as the choice of the public.

Time Magazine 8-17-1925

"Jack Dempsey was introduced from the ring at the opening of the Olympic Stadium in Los Angeles. Booing thundered from the topmost rim of the amphitheatre, mixed with a chant of "Bring on Wills." Dempsey turned the color of an embarrassed orchid and crept back to his seat."

Time Magazine 7-30-1923

within the coverage of the Leonard-Tendler match at Yankee Stadium.

"Noteworthy was the arrival of Harry Wills, logical candidate for a chance at Dempsey. He was cheered every step of the way from the entrance in centre field to his seat near the ring."

This is a couple of typical examples. Show evidence that the boxing public didn't want Wills to get a shot at the championship.