who rates higher Ken Norton or Tim Witherspoon?

:rofl:rofl:rofl

 

You're right- I doubt he used anything illegal. It's worth noting that PED's weren't illegal when Norton fought.

By Norton's era, they'd already been in the Olympics for at least a decade and firmly entrenched in pro sports. The individual nature of boxing, and how important a single fight is, provides more motivation to use than in any team sport. This isn't a sport populated by choir boys so much as it is the wild west of athletics.

It doesn't make sense to look for smoking guns when the climate for PED's was completely different than it is today. Applying today's lens, 40 years later, doesn't work. They were legal and the stigma that exists today wasn't there. Simple as that.

I will say is that singling out Ken may be out of line; what I firmly believe is that PED's were rife in boxing by his era and people wouldn't like seeing a list of all the "name" fighters that were already on them. Pretending that it was a 90's problem is inaccurate by a factor of decades.

 

Ken Norton went 0-3 in HW world title fights but was the WBC champ in 1978. HW Champ Leon Spinks avoided fighting #1 contender Ken Norton in order to fight a big money rematch with Muhammad Ali.

Spinks upset Ali to win the title and a rematch would be huge and seemingly less risky than defending the title against Norton... who had been robbed of a decision vs. Ali in 1976.

In 1977 he stopped Duane Bobick KO1 and Lorenzo Zanon KO5, he also won a split-decision over Jimmy Young... who had also been robbed of a decision vs. Ali in 1976 (5 months before Norton). Young also beat Ron Lyle in a rematch in 1976. In 1977 (8 months before his fight with Norton), Young beat George Foreman by decision (he even dropped Foreman).

At this point Ken Norton was considered the best HW in the world by most people. When Spinks ducked Norton, Norton was proclaimed the WBC HW champ.

In Norton's first defense of the WBC title he lost a split-decision to Larry Holmes. It's worth mentioning that Norton went 1-2 vs. Ali overall but most feel he should have went 2-1. All 3 of their fights were close. Norton also beat Henry Clark KO9, Boone Kirkman KO7, Jerry Quarry KO5, Jose L. Garcia KO5 (avenging an earlier defeat), Ron Stander KO5, Larry Middleton KO10, and Tex Cobb WSD10 among others.


Tim Witherspoon went 3-3 (1) in HW world title fights. He held the WBC belt in 1984 and the WBA belt in 1986.

He lost a split-decision to Larry Holmes in in his 16th pro fight. He beat Greg Page by majority-decision to win the vacant WBC belt. He lost that belt by majority-decision to Pinklon Thomas.

He won the WBA belt by beating Tony Tubbs by majority-decision. He defended that belt vs. Frank Bruno KO11, before losing the title to Bonecrusher Smith LKOby1... who he had won a clear decision over 18 months prior.

He also beat Alfonzo Ratliff KO7, Renaldo Snipes WMD10, Jumbo Cummings W10, Quick Tillis KO1, James Broad KO2, Jose Ribalta WMD10, The Truth Williams WSD12, and even had some good wins very late in his career.

 

I'll take Norton by decision.

 

Neither man was the hwt champion. Difference between the two?

Norton beat the best hwt ever in Ali.

Norton was just a higher class fighter than Tim. Norton fought at a time where the boxing world was not watered down as it was during most of Tims career.

 

He did 3 times. Who can say that they fought Ali pretty much even (or maybe even won 2 out of 3) in 3 separate fights? Even Joe Frazier clearly lost to Ali in their 2nd fight.

He also beat Jimmy Young who gave Ali many problems, beat Ron Lyle twice, drew with Ernie Shavers, and beat Foreman (even dropped him).

He trashed Jerry Quarry, KO5.

He was stopped early in his career and twice late in his career. During his best years he was only stopped by George Foreman... so was Joe Frazier.

 

Not to derail a thread, but for me I would be very hesitant to say that PEDs were widespread in the 70's.
In my estimation they started getting used quite substantially by the mid to late 80's, when weight training became more and more acceptable and the boxing and fitness/bodybuilding worlds became more intertwined.

Even in bodybuilding 'roid use in the 70's was absolutely nothing compared to what it was like just 10 years later.

 

I hate to break it to you, but Ali in the 70s was far from being the best heavyweight ever.

 

He would have beaten most all past or present hwt champions.

 

Wlad and Povetkin would flatten Ken.

 

Silly. Would not occur if they fought 20 times. The Ali from 1971-1975 was just too great a fighter. Let alone prime Ali. To fast, to tough.

 

Povetkin beats Ali or 1980 and 1981.
He'd perhaps be slight favourite over 1977 - '78 Ali.
Every other Ali beats him.
Prime Ali slaps him silly.

 

80 and 81????????? That's old and sick Ali. 77-78 that's old Ali.

Ali up until 1976 beats either fighter. Past that time Ali really should not have been fighting.

 

Norton fought in a greater era. He ranks higher.