Who showed the better chin vs foreman? Frazier or Lyle?

George was a fit 27-year-old when he fought Lyle.

 

Fit but definitely Rusty, and lacking that killer instinct.

 

Foreman ruined Lyle. Ron's career after that became tough fights with everyone he fought. Amazingly enough, it should have been Frazier that was the guy ruined. I thought he was damaged, but not ruined.

As to the topic, Foreman didn't land his uppercuts on Lyle and that's his best shots--left and right uppercuts. His hooks are bad enough and look what happened to Lyle from the hooks and straight right hands. Joe ate the worst variety of punches.

 

But coming off a ko loss in a big fight. Go ahead and name the heavies coming off a big ko loss that fight a hitter in their next bout. The Foreman camp didn't care who they fought and took on a hitter. Ali himself after fighting George took on a no hoper in Wepner.

That's what we could have had instead---a Ron Stander. A washed up Mac Foster. Washed up Jimmy Ellis. A face first guy like Schutte even. Lots of other guys around at the time to get an easy W against. But they did not do what has become so prevelant in the sport the last 4 decades---take the path of least resistance. Ron Lyle at that time was no where near the path of least resistance matchmaking.

 

Foreman wanted to reestablish his aura by knocking out the most dangerous guy in boxing. Lyle at the time was looked at as the most dangerous guy in boxing after knocking out Earnie Shavers.

 

George was coming off the definitive confidence crushing defeat over a year earlier. This defeat has since been the standard for a aura of invincibility. Not including his loss to Ali George fought only 3 rounds in the 3 years since beating Frazier. Lyle didn't face the same Foreman as Frazier!

 

Well they were in a bad position. It was altogether different than boxing today. Only 1 champion in the heavyweight division. The title wouldn't get split again until a few years later.

And even a guy like Perenchio could not secure the Ali rematch and so he left the sport in 1975. So George--who signed w/ DKP and he couldn't secure the fight either--was put in a position to make himself relevant. But he certainly could have gone the way of say, Kenny Norton. Look at the guys he fought after the Caracas caper. He just kept winning fighting the B grade heavies and eventually got another title shot. But he certainly was not taking on top heavies or cleaning out the highly ranked contenders.

Be that as it may, signing a contract to fight a guy like Lyle in that scenario was, and still is, unheard of. You just don't put heavyweight ko victims in with the hitters. Or the cutie pies. The guy you exclusively see is a face first guy. And usually minimal punching power. So the risk isn't so great and the rust will come off or not cause physical damage.

That does not describe Ron Lyle at that time. He was the polar opposite. But we, as the fans, were treated to a great slugfest. In a match that--most likely-- simply does not get made in the 40 odd years since that bout transpired.

Later on when he came back, George certainly understood the ramifications of fighting the big hitters and benefits of screening opponents a lot better. But look at that 5 fight series of his---I think the toughest in the history of the sport; undefeated champ Frazier/Roman/Norton/Ali/Lyle.

Not exactly easy to go 4-1 against that crop. Or to dig deep to pull out a W.

 

I think that Lyle and others like him would always have a 50/50 chance of beating George. We struggle with cognitive dissonance when we see a Lyle standing over a decked Foreman with his face buried in the canvas, or a befuddled Foreman getting decked by a powder puncher like Young, or Ali getting a boxing lesson from Young, or Dempsey getting schooled by Meehan, and on and on. Our idols are merely men and anything can happen in life, and certainly in a boxing match. Peace, bro.

 

Hey Saad!
To answer your 4 comments above:
1) Quarry belongs in the discussion. He wore down top contenders, IMO his KO power was a 'tad' overrated yet he hurt Lyle badly and couldn't hurt Frazier.
2) Granted but...he was coming off a layoff, wasn't near as good as pre-Ali, and fought a different fight.
3) Lights out! Perhaps as quick as Frazier.
4) Joe was 'downhill semi-toast' at that point.

 

Frazier ..

 

But it's clear that Frazier of the second bout took Foreman's shots better than Lyle did.

 

If we are solely judging the chins of Frasier and Lyle based on their fights with Foreman, I go with Joe.

He was fighting a better version of George who, in 1973, had no confusion about his style. Saddler taught George to go out and wreck opponents so he fully committed to every shot but Gil Clancy had George bringing his legs closer together and straightening his shots. Sound advice, as someone said, but it didn't work for George. Charlie Goldman never tried to change Marciano's unorthodox style in case it ruined his punch power. Foreman with Clancy in his corner shows what might have happened.

Secondly they say the punches that hurt are the ones you don't see. Joe was rumoured to be partly blind in one eye by the time he fought George. To take those shots unseen was some feat and testament to his chin.

Thirdly, Frazier was out of shape, Lyle well-conditioned. It was the strength of his chin alone that kept Joe from being blown out immediately because, God knows, his conditioning wasn't helping him.

Another point is that Frazier had no encouragement. It must be a bit easier to take a shot when you've landed a few of your own and have even scored a couple of knockdowns, like Ron had. Ron's chin failed him in a really competitive fight. Joe never went down not to get up again despite knowing that he was out of shape and in with much the better fighter on the night.

 

The "one good right hand" was a sneaky solid Ali landed aftet using a heavy jab as bait. Lyle covered up with both hands, blocking his own vision. He literally didnt see it coming and it landed square on the jaw. I wouldnt use that as evidence Frazier was superior, especially because one could flip it around and point out how Ali buckled Fraziers knees and had him in trouble in the 2nd round of the second fight while it took Ali like 10-11 rounds to finally visibly hurt Lyle.

 

He did but that was based more on styles. Frazier got up more than Lyle and he took more punches. Joe got up fighting back as well each time but he couldn't get inside and reach Foreman. When he did get in there George just pushed him back. Lyle was 6-3 and was able to reach George from the outside. Looking at the other fights they fought with common opponents Joe Frazier took a much better punch.

 

The only struggle I had was understanding why he fought some after a shattering defeat and being inactive. In contrast to being 2 -1 prior to Lyle in
the 3 year period pror to Frazier he was 24 -0 honing his skills for a title. It is illogical to think the Foreman making his comeback was nearly as formidable as the version who captured the title.