Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

Sure fixed it second and third fight didn't he, not to mention the Duran Leonard faced at 147 was far far better equipped than the one Hagler faced at 160. On a P4P basis Marvin would have had fits with the version from Montreal. More than fits actually, Dooran W15.

 

Hopkins would have whooped all three. No question in my eyes. Maybe not whopped, but certainly beaten all three.

 

Duran from 1980 doesn't have the strength to compete. If Hagler believed him to be an actual threat he wouldn't be arm punching with him, but rather he'd flatten him quickly.

 

Hagler would have smoked the Duran who beat Leonard in Montreal. Certainly if its a 147lb Duran against a 160lb Hagler. Its simply fantasy anyway, and would not be sanctioned.

 

Yeah by running away.

 

Just because Leonard moved laterally with Duran and never gave him the opportunity to get into exchanges you can hardly call it negative. Leonard accomplished what he had to do to win the fight after losing the first encounter.

This term "running away" is just a ridiculous statmement to make when a boxer outclasses a fighter from long range with smart defense behind the jab.

Leonard threw Duran a rubik's cube that night, and Duran couldn't solve the puzzle. Tough luck.

 

I can't agree that Duran was ever in danger of being stopped. He got tired early, got a second wind and found a bit of a groove and then faded at the end. I'd be curious to know when you saw him "in danger of being stopped."

Your reasoning behind Hagler's weakness is interesting... and I am curious about whether it will hold up under scrutiny. Be forewarned... I consider the Leonard fight as unindicative of Hagler's prowess in the ring. If you base that observation on 2 fights -one of which he won and the other which is obviously highly controversial (5% of threads out here are devoted to it!), it will take more.

Well, that is pure conjecture. Hagler may have been just too convinced that Ray was impotent so he decided to outbox him. Incidentally, he may have indeed outboxed him in 1982...

I agree that Hagler won by more than the cards showed... albeit slightly. Duran did not get steamrolled and he was not dominated. He was competitive -but clearly lost.

Duran said that he was going to surprise Hagler and everyone else that night. His plan was to not to war with Hagler inside, it was to force Hagler to come in so that Duran could counter and spin. Duran played trickster and in so doing threw Hagler off his game because Hagler thought he was going to fight a bull. Instead, he had to give up the red cape and don horns on his egg.

Duran got winded partly because although he was elusive, he was not mobile -such things are cowardly to him. He stayed inside the perimeter and relied on smarts and skill. At one point Duran pushed Hagler back and Duran himself was propelled backwards off that rock. Hagler didn't budge. Leonard indeed took that strategy and expounded upon it with mobility. Duran did not, in my estimation, have to make an adjustment once he realized that Hagler was too strong inside... he conceded that before the fight and sought to stay at angles, feint, lead, spin, and counter. It was actually very sophisticated stuff if you watch him closely... I think his problem was the strength of Hagler and the ambidexterity which threw Duran off because Hagler would suddenly punch from opposite angles than expected. Duran got tired and was getting caught more than he anticipated which got him more tired.

Are you lurching into fallacious thinking? Duran getting KOd was not something that could be safely assumed before Hearns. ****, or after Hearns. Additionally, what cost him in a fight 4 years after 1983 should not be used to make judgements him when he hadn't experienced that yet. In fact... Hagler was an extremely adept boxer and dealt with Briscoe by boxing, not warring. In the 70s, Hagler was almost as likely to box and give movement before Vito as he was to destruct and destroy (his opponents and the English language).

This is fallacious reasoning. Hagler couldn't read the future. He sought the win and took the win. It is just too easy to knock him because he didn't do what Hearns did 8 months later. Fact is, Hagler fought a far more ready and dangerous Duran than that milk-dud that Hearns faced.

Relevant information is this: the Hands of Stone was known as an extremely adept counter puncher. He had made mincemeat of a muscular and younger fighter and still packed a whallop a mere 6 pounds away from Hagler. It was not an established fact that Duran significantly lost power as a MW... he hadn't stepped up yet! All that was known is that he was one of the greatest fighters who ever lived, hit like hell, was elusive, and a ferocious puncher and counterpuncher. That would have been enough for me to be careful with the man.

Okay... but the point remains that Monzon made subtle adjustments in the course of a fight but it was really about imposing his will. His style was not exactly sophisticated but it was very effective. Hagler could be as hard as Chinese Math in there.

I think that you are selling Hagler very short here. Hagler was a damn good finisher. Mintor. Monroe. Scypion. Lee. Hearns! The list is exhausting. I see Hagler's performance here as understandable caution against a legend.

'Wilt' isn't 'hurt'.

Usually so. Yes indeed. If you consider the information available at the time and history, I would say you can make a case... but so can't I.

You're opinion may have been different in November 1983, when his previous two KOs were fresh on the mind. But... okay. I'll take the compromise!

 

I didn't see Leonard fixing any problems in the second match with Duran. It was a pretty evenly contested fight until Duran quit. Given all we know about Duran's condition, the fact that Leonard didn't dominate all the way is quite telling. It mildly funny to watch the fanboys drool over that fight. I guess after watching their idol taken to school in Montreal, they had to come up with something to redeem their man.

The rubbermatch was a joke. Leonard ran all night. Boxers who rip fans off with that running **** deserve all the criticisms they get. I was happy to see Norris pound Leonard mostly because of how Leonard ripped me off in the third Duran fight. Leonard had a bad habit of running away from ****. He wouldn't give Tommy an immediate rematch. He wouldn't fight Hagler when Marvin was prime. He wouldn't give Hagler a rematch. A great fighter is supposed to take on all the legacy defining challenges. Not Leonard, no sir.

And if I can be blunt about things, anybody who thinks that the Duran of the first Leonard fight would have whipped the 1980 version of Marvelous Marvin Hagler doesn't know jack**** about the sport of boxing. Duran was much more prepared for Hagler when he fought him than he would have been had they met in 1980. Duran had settled into middleweight. He was a hard 160 pounds by that time. He had more years of experience on him by that time, and experience is invaluable when facing a master like Hagler.

 

Anyone who never seen Leonard fix any problems in the second fight doesn't know anything about boxing. He fought the opposite kind of fight than he did 5 months earlier. Lateral movement, jabs, and lead right hands down the pipe. He simply fixed the problem with superb ring generalship and keeping his distance. While Leonard wasn't particularly busy with his hands, he was preventing Duran from getting into postion to punch. Leonard's movement was the key. He made Duran miss, and made him pay. Stategy entirely different.

It seems the rubbermatch was a joke because Leonard won the fight, if it was roles reversed would you say the same?. I think not. Two trucks colliding provides for entertainment, but one sided fights can also be pleasing on the eye if your not one dimensional when it comes to the sport. Leonard running all night in my your eyes is boxing in mines. Sadly for yourself not every fighter is tuned entering the ring to constantly come forward seeking to get into exchanges, thus making life difficult for themselves when they have other options up their sleeve. Its all about winning.

Duran was prepared for Hagler, but certainly not physically. Duran had settled into middleweight?. The same man who was 7 years as lightweight champion in his prime years, then moved up another two divisions before even sharing a ring with Hagler at middleweight. 5 months prior to taking Hagler the distance he won the jr middleweight title, so somehow I don't think he was settled into the weight. You really are having a laugh. Duran was far from hard at 160lbs I can assure you, as he never he reached the limit, weighing in at 156lbs. Even 6 years after the fight he was dwarfed when measuring up against Barkely. Still not a natural middleweight, never was and never would be come to think of it.

 

It's called "boxing". SRL, master practitioner of the art of hit and not get hit

:good

 

I had Hagler up by around 4 points at the time of the final bell.

It wasn't quite as close as some have stated, having said that had Hagler been a tad less cautious he may well have won by a late stoppage. Duran fought valiantly, though never looked like troubling Marv that much throughout much of the contest. :good

 

Just went back to the fight and admittedly Duran wasn't as bad off as i thought. Marvin did however seize the iniative in round 6 by getting more aggressive only to revert back to the overly respectful tactics of prior rounds.

I will say this, if Duran was just another average title defense without the big name or reputation i think Marvin would have stopped him with 15 rounds to play with. He would not have been star struck and would have fought with much more intensity. Against a big name with some decent defensive skill he hardly looked like the consumate war warrior he had been made out to be.

Trouble is we don't have much to go on. It was an ordinary era for top middleweights and it took 3 smaller guys to spark it up. Marvin was murder on your average come forward fighter. It's interesting that two of the three best fighters he defended against, one a good technician (he had to be in this one) and one a speedster showed a very different side of Marvin Hagler.

Not as much conjecture as the eye theory IMO when he publically stated different. Even old Goody said immediately after the bout that Marvin showed Duran too much respect. Not a bad apple that one.

Marvin stated that he fought orthodox and tried to box because Leonard expected differently. Why in gods name a great like Marvin (with all the natural advantages here) was flustered enough to worry about what Leonard expected rather than simply thinking who cares what he's waiting for i'll mash him anyway, i will never know.

Yes Marvin possibly would have outboxed Ray in 82, he certainly should have given the size advantages. Then again, after seeing the short circuiting in 87 who could be certain.

Total agreement here.

Marvin didn't have to give up anything but his passiveness. Watch him win the first 30 seconds of most rounds then switch modes allowing Duran to come back in quite a few. Duran the trickster still could have and should have been bullied around and beaten convincingly. Of this i have no doubt, no matter how highly one thinks of Roberto.

Duran was also 4 pounds heavier than vs Moore, 4 1/2 more than Cuevas and also had 3 steaks early fight day. The weight was his highest since Jimmy Batten in 1982.

Gone was the sharpness and continuity of these bouts.

I'll agree to all this and also add the weight factor as i did above.

Fair call, but i still ponder that if Duran wasn't the marquee name just how things would have ended up. Not to take anything away from Duran.

Hagler copped it from all and sundrey and lost far more than he gained in this bout. Criticism came from every corner. This was pre Hearns when comments weren't taking this destruction into account.

I'll take Hearns by KO over the guy Hagler faced too. Hagler made Duran look better than he really was this day. Hearns was not one to give any such leeway. If anything, his problem was too far the other way at times.

 

A very very inexperienced and open one not in the same stratosphere (on soooo many levels) as Hagler.

It was an established fact Duran lost power at 147 and pounded Moore from ******* to breakfast before finally getting the stoppage. He pounded the guy unmercilessy with his cleanest punches and the stoppage was from severe accumulation. Given these facts you didn't really expect him to regain the power from his halcyon days at 135 when stepping up to did you? Hagler knew full well that he pounded Moore for ages.

To be honest i think you are making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill. Roberto wasn't coming in to fight some star struck rookie, he was coming in to face the self proclaimed meanest fighter in boxing. A guy that had been bent on his own recent destructions over bigger and better men than Roberto. Roberto should have been the one with something to fear, not Hagler.

To a Hamsho maybe. Monzon never confused himself and really was all the things i said.

Yet he couldn't finish two much smaller men that were smarter and more elusive than the above.

Fair call, but i would have loved to have seen some sustained pressure.

As stated, Roberto pounded a hapless Moore for an eternity. I can compromise tho.

 

How was Duran elusive? He went flat footed with Hagler all night.

 

Duran never quite showed the the same movement that Leonard did 4 years later, but he was moving more than he usually does against Hagler. His was elusive mainly because of his ability at slipping and blocking punches. Hagler actually got through with more punches than people give him credit for, but they were not serious blows as Duran moved his head at the moment of impact. Upperbody movement was also another area that Duran implemented well.