Who was best p4p: RJJ and Duran?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Bokaj, May 19, 2008.


Page 2 of 6
  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,408
    48,817
    Mar 21, 2007

    Is there any doubt of this? To ape Duran - a lightweight who beat one of the best five welter's of all time - Jones would have to beat someone of the calibre of Tunney or Foster at 175 whilst that fighter was absolutley peaking. Duran's victory over Barkely, an aggressive, punching MW champion, is certainly more impressive to me than Jones' victory over Ruiz...as for Duran's monumental effort against Hagler, that would be like Jones taking Lennox Lewis the distance and pushing him close to defeat in one of his last fights...they are on different stratosphere's resume wise.

    Now, you might say "Jones would have done those things" and I would say, "Jones would have lost had he fought anything like to Duran's level, but the fact is we just don't know...working with what we've got I see them as a clear level apart.
     
    McGrain, May 20, 2008
    McGrain, May 20, 2008
    #16
  2. Ezzard

    Ezzard Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,070
    19
    Nov 11, 2005
    McGrain beat me to it...

    Duran has 2 distinct careers... Up to the first Leonard fight he was an aggressive all action fighter. His punch output, defensive skills, punch power and relentless application of pressure made him a formidable fighter. A true great of his weight class.

    Post Leonard he no longer had the lungs (or the desire in training - after beating leonard his torso never looked tight again) for the kind of output he needed to be the fighter he was before. He had to adapt his game and get over the shame of his No Mas defeat.

    The post Leonard Duran could still beat world class aggressive fighters but he could no lonher chase a fleet footed opponent down as he had done in his pomp. Lets not forget that he was way north of his best weight too and his body punching no longer had the same dramatic effect it used to have. He fought Benitez and Laing at exactly the wrong time in his career (and they were now styles he just didn't have the athletic ability to catch up with anymore)...but Duran had no fear of losing and would fight anyone. He was not a managed fighter in that sense.

    Who was there who Duran didn't fight? Arguello and Pryor? They's have been sold as big fights but both would have been mismatches. Pryor not in that league and Arguello not of that weight class.
     
    Ezzard, May 20, 2008
    Ezzard, May 20, 2008
    #17
  3. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    28,277
    13,304
    Jan 4, 2008
    It's not that I favour RJJ in this scenario, actually I don't have a strong opinion either way. But I just don't see this "levels apart" thing. Duran's three best victories (Leonard, Barkely and DeJesus?) are probably better than Jones's (Toney, McCallum and Ruiz), but if you take into consideration that Jones's wins probably were more dominant, I don't think the difference is huge. Also, Duran lost to DeJesus, Leonard, Hagler and Hearns while reasonable close to his prime, while Jones's losses came when he was way past it, even if the opponents were far inferior to those named above. But I'm sure Duran himself lost to less impressive opposition during his long career.

    All in all, while Duran's record might or might not be better, I don't see any huge differences.
     
    Bokaj, May 20, 2008
    Bokaj, May 20, 2008
    #18
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,408
    48,817
    Mar 21, 2007

    I find this quite surprising. I'd rate Duran's win over Leonard as one of the best in the history of the sport. As for Duran losing to Hagler "close to his prime", how is he close to his prime when he's a lightweight fighting at middleweight? And fighting one of the greatest middleweight's who ever fought! I think that Duran is in with Greb, Robinson and Langford if he wins that one, it's an astonishing achievment to go so close.

    I'll go further - Duran's losing effort against Hagler is more impressive to me than any single win Jones has apart from the Ruiz win. Dominance notwithstanding.
     
    McGrain, May 20, 2008
    McGrain, May 20, 2008
    #19
  5. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

    42,723
    271
    Jul 22, 2004
    Your overplaying the Hagler card, Hagler fought the wrong fight, fought down to Durans level, and was past his best. Duran was 30lbs north of his best weight, so fair play to him but it wasnt like he was completely physically overwhelmed, he was fairly solid at 160lbs, there was only 1 inch difference in height.

    To say that Durans performance against Hagler is better than RJJs masterclass against Toney is mind boggling

    However if Jones fought Lennox he would be 80lbs north of his best weight, so not such a fair comparison. There would be 6 inches difference in height and 10inches in reach. Who knows maybe RJJ could spoil and win a few rounds going the 12.

    BAD COMPARISON
     
    PowerPuncher, May 20, 2008
    PowerPuncher, May 20, 2008
    #20
  6. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

    42,723
    271
    Jul 22, 2004
    Again Duran was possibly at his prime because he still had his physical gifts and his skills were peaking against a somewhat Pre-Prime Leonard.

    Amazing win BUT RJJ didnt have the opportunity to face a top5 LHW of all time. I see RJJ outboxing Tunney or Moore to wide wide UDs. And he wouldnt lose the rematch like Duran did to Leonard

    In fairness RJJ beat a top5 MW of all time to convincing 8-4 in the shape of BHOPs.

    James Toney at the time RJJ fought him was arguably P4P no1, undefeated, in his prime, and at the time probably the greatest 168lber ever (although 168lb division in young so take that with a pinch of salt)

    How about 160lb RJJ versus the Leonard Hagler fought (or any Leonard you want). I know who my money's on.
     
    PowerPuncher, May 20, 2008
    PowerPuncher, May 20, 2008
    #21
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,408
    48,817
    Mar 21, 2007
    It's not a card, it's a fact - Hagler was past his best, but I would still pick THAT Hagler over most MW's in history and ALL middleweight campaigning today. You disagree? Of course Duran was not "completely physically overwhelmed" he would have been knocked out in the first round, he is an aggressive, in the pocket fighter. But he is a genuine Lightweight, not a boiled down lightweight. The effort was extraordinary. I don't think i've seen a more impressive losing effort, ever. That's probably a thread on it's own...

    Performance? No, I didn't say that, I said that the manner of the loss is more impressive than the manner of Jones' win against Toney (who was hideously weight drained - yes, I am satisfied to the fact, no I wasn't there). A lightweight competing with an ATG middleweight (let's say top 6 all time, undoubtedly) is more impressive to me than a big middleweight outclassing a very very good weight drained big middleweight. Yes.

    Well it MIGHT not be, but not for the reason you've outlined. Surely these things should be calculated as a fraction of bodyweight, not in real numbers? Otherwise a middlewight going to Cruiser would be more impressive than a flyweight going to welter, which probably isn't true.


    I think you underestimate, grossly, the bigger differences smaller differences make at the lower weight. A man weighing 110lbs fighting a man who weighs 175lbs gives away half of his body weight. A man who weighs 200lbs fighting a man who weighs 260 doesn't. So again, it MIGHT be a bad comparison, but not for the reason you think.
     
    McGrain, May 20, 2008
    McGrain, May 20, 2008
    #22
  8. Ezzard

    Ezzard Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,070
    19
    Nov 11, 2005
    Duran fought a brilliant fight against Hagler. He worked out the blueprint of how to beat him. He just didn't have the tools to pull it off. If Duran had been younger I think he actually might have done it.

    Leonard realised what Duran had done and came back against Howard as a tune up for Hagler. He then aborted afetr his poor showing.
     
    Ezzard, May 20, 2008
    Ezzard, May 20, 2008
    #23
  9. Ezzard

    Ezzard Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,070
    19
    Nov 11, 2005
    Hopkins was not a top 5 MW at the time Jones fought him (and he was never a top 5 MW). It was an accident that the fight ever happened anyway.
     
    Ezzard, May 20, 2008
    Ezzard, May 20, 2008
    #24
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,408
    48,817
    Mar 21, 2007
    OK, but Duran was fighting TWO divisions north of his best weight whereas "somewhat Pre-Prime Leonard (What?) was fighting at the best weight he would ever be at. That counts for more than whatever aspects make you see Leonard - who had already KO'd all time great Benitez - "somewhat pre-prime", as far as I can see.

    If one was active, it seems unlikely to me he would have fought him. Regardless, i'm certainly not handing out wins over the men you mention like sweeties for the purpose of this argument.

    A great win. You think this win is better than the Ruiz one, or not?

    Like I say - he was horribly, horribly weight drained according to what I have. Christ, I would say you could tell by the perfromance. Regardless, it was Toney's indiscipline that led him to the impass and boxing is a composite sport. So the win is good, i'm not trying to take it away from him. But Duran has better wins in my view.

    Jones would kill him. SO what?
     
    McGrain, May 20, 2008
    McGrain, May 20, 2008
    #25
  11. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

    42,723
    271
    Jul 22, 2004
    Firstly your maths is messed up Jones started at 160, Duran started at 130. The difference between Duran going upto lightweight makes him 81% of the size of a 160lber. Jones going up against a 240lb means he would be 66.6% the size of a Lennox. THATS A MASSIVE DIFFERENCE. Even against Ruiz hes only 69%the mass of a Ruiz, going by the maths - Right? Agreed? Fair?

    As fighters age they get bigger, pack on more mass. Duran was the smaller man against Hagler but he carried the 160lbs. To be fair RJJ was often the smaller man at 175 and was giving up nearly 40lbs against Ruiz.
     
    PowerPuncher, May 20, 2008
    PowerPuncher, May 20, 2008
    #26
  12. Ezzard

    Ezzard Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,070
    19
    Nov 11, 2005
    Duran actually started out as a bantamweight. His first great win was over Ernesto Marcel at Feather.

    Ruiz was a very carefully selected opponent to show jones at his best and the ref was also very carefully selected to make sure the Ruiz clutch didn't become too much of a factor.

    Jones won but it was a carefully crafted business plan that started with a search for a suitable name HW who was made to order. He didn't campaign at the weight. He never fought another HW. He didn't go 15 rounds...

    Jones was a great fighter in many respects but you can't compare him with Duran.
     
    Ezzard, May 20, 2008
    Ezzard, May 20, 2008
    #27
  13. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

    42,723
    271
    Jul 22, 2004
    1. This brings in the question of physical and skill primes. Leonard wasnt yet at his skill prime at that age even if he had beat Benitez. Duran was near his physical prime and had reached his skill prime. Plus Leonard fought Durans fight. In the rematch Leonard won every round.

    2. The point is we know RJJ was that good, even if he didnt get a chance to show it against a Moore/Charles/Tunney he showed it against Toney/BHOPs/

    3. Yes BHOPs is a skill level above Ruiz, far mroe important for legacy and all in all

    4. Toney was supposedly weight drained, but he was always weight drained, he was a weight drainer, thats what weight drainers do to get a size advantage. Toney was only complaining about being weight drained after he lost

    5. It says allot for your opinion of RJJ that you think he kills Leonard at 160. Yes RJJ holds the natural size/strength advantage. I think at his absolute peak RJJ was more unbeatable at his best weight than any other fighter. I wouldnt say the same about Duran at any weight
     
    PowerPuncher, May 20, 2008
    PowerPuncher, May 20, 2008
    #28
  14. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

    42,723
    271
    Jul 22, 2004
    I know Duran started out as a Bantamweight when he was a teenager but by the age of 21 he was a fully fledged 135lber, and loads of his fights were over the 135 limit at 140 from his early 20s. Jones Jr was a minimumweight when he was 10, so what?

    Jones Jr was a 154lber at 21, Duran was a a 135lber at 21, so technically at that age only 19lbs seperated the 2

    If were technical the Marcel fight was at Super feather, 130lbs BUT Duran was 19 when that fight happened, so lets pretend Durans a natural feather

    Facts are Duran carried 135 and 147 very very well and wasnt weak at the weight. He was 5'7 so wasnt short at 135 or 147, he was undersized at MW
     
    PowerPuncher, May 20, 2008
    PowerPuncher, May 20, 2008
    #29
  15. Robbi

    Robbi Marvelous Full Member

    15,221
    174
    Jul 23, 2004

    2 inches in height. Hagler was in his prime, well certainly closer to his prime than he was past it.

    Duran's performance was pretty good against Hagler. But he lost the fight handily regardless of what the cards said at the end. McGrain's just joking about it being better than any of Jones' wins. He's trying to impersonate Rooster.
     
    Robbi, May 20, 2008
    Robbi, May 20, 2008
    #30
Page 2 of 6