Who was best p4p: RJJ and Duran?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Bokaj, May 19, 2008.


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  1. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I must say, Duran's record makes for a much better read. He's met better and more exciting opponents, win or lose, and have in general taken on much greater challenges than RJJ.

    But there's not much more you can ask of Jones's record, though, even if it might not be as exciting. Fighters like Benn and Eubanks should be there, but few doubt Jones would have beat them anyway. And his only losses, embarrasing as they may be, came when he was way past his prime. In his prime he was totally dominant for a long while. That's why I think that few records outclasses Jones's and that Duran's isn't one of them.

    I'm not too fond of the talk of "weight drained" Toney by the way. Toney was in his prime and seen as maybe the best p4p at the time, the rest is idle chatter. You might as well explain away Duran's win over Leonard by saying that Leonard fought in an extremely foolish fashion and that his loss to Duran therefore was a one-off. The simple truth is that Duran beat Leonard and RJJ beat Toney when both fighters were considered great.
     
    Bokaj, May 20, 2008
    Bokaj, May 20, 2008
    #31
  2. teeto

    teeto Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    Oh no
     
    teeto, May 20, 2008
    teeto, May 20, 2008
    #32
  3. teeto

    teeto Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    In terms of raw talent and possibly even h2h p4p it can be argued that Jones edges Duran here, and THAT argument can be justified.

    But Duran is ahead of him in terms of alltime greatness. Roberto in his prime was trully amazing, 1 of a kind (Jones was aswell), and is one of the very highest-tier fighters in the history of the sport, that means alongside Robinson (if that is possible!!!), and Armstrong, Pep etc. We're talking a guy who it is very dificult to rank someone above him.

    Whenever a Duran debate comes up i always get into why i think his style in his prime was as close to perfection in a ring as i have seen, i wont bore the more regular posters with it again!! Not that Duran was the perfect fighter to emlploy the style BTW, but he wasnt too far away from that either!!! Ha
     
    teeto, May 20, 2008
    teeto, May 20, 2008
    #33
  4. Ezzard

    Ezzard Well-Known Member Full Member

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    1. Leonard beat an ATG in Benitez but wasn't in his prime??? Why not?

    As for fighting Duran's fight that's just a made up story by the media because of the stench of No Mas. Leonard got tagged in the 2nd round and by his own admission didn't really come to for a few rounds. Whatever his plan was we'll never know becasue that shot in the 2nd changed the fight. Watch the fight: Duran has more success on the outside. leonard fought on the inside because it was less danegrous for him.

    2. I absolutely refute this... This is the whole crux of it. The point is we do not know any such thing.

    3. Hopkins was a matchmaking accident. One that was never risked again. Still a good win though.

    4. Toney was a mess and was not the same man who beat Nunn, but that's his fault so all props go to Jones in terms of legacy but still...
     
    Ezzard, May 20, 2008
    Ezzard, May 20, 2008
    #34
  5. Ezzard

    Ezzard Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I think perhaps this is a trick thread that I've stumbled blindly into...
     
    Ezzard, May 20, 2008
    Ezzard, May 20, 2008
    #35
  6. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    ...
     
    Stonehands89, May 20, 2008
    Stonehands89, May 20, 2008
    #36
  7. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Come on now, Stonehands, say your piece! I know you don't give this thread much credence, but have a go anyway.
     
    Bokaj, May 20, 2008
    Bokaj, May 20, 2008
    #37
  8. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    I agree to an extent, I have both top10 of all time. My ranking of Jones is so high largely on talent but his achievements are underrated based on how easy he made it all look
     
    PowerPuncher, May 20, 2008
    PowerPuncher, May 20, 2008
    #38
  9. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    1. IMO no Leonard hadn't matured, you can have your best wins pre-prime can you not? Yes Duran was amazing in this fight, but Leonard did fight the wrong fight

    2. BHOPs and Toney are on the level of Moore/Tunney anyway

    3. Early Jones wasnt about match making, he tried to make fights with Eubank and Benn. He made the fight with Toney, which he didnt have to do if he was avoiding , Toney was a bad ass and basically the Duran of the 160-168 divisions. If your a cherry picker you dont face Toney. Jones was also going to fight McCellan before his demise

    4. :| BULL****, Toney was always weight draining. Are you telling me he got him in worse shape for a mega-fight with Jones than he was in for the rest of fights? Toney always weight drained in the early days, this is an excuse plain and simple.

    And I like Toney, hes my fave fighter at the moment, more than RJJ but lets be rational
     
    PowerPuncher, May 20, 2008
    PowerPuncher, May 20, 2008
    #39
  10. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I see that you noticed the bump I gave to a recent thread that dared to ask the question as to whether "Jones was better than Ali."

    He isn't.

    --And the rest of that thread is simply aftertremors of that thunderously true pronouncement. Some may view this as intolerant. If some believe that, they are radical relativists in my opinion and I would kindly ask them to reserve their relativism for a more suitable venue -like an ice cream shop.

    When it comes to fighters, we can, should, and do have some kind of objective standard.

    And some opinions simply aren't the equal of other opinions.
    And some fighters simply aren't near other fighters.

    Jones is a great fighter. But he isn't within earshot of Ali. Jones isn't within sight of Duran -and that's with a telescope.

    So, instead of being painfully redundant by re-posting all of the reasons that support that view, I'd invite you to read the posts I've already offered on Rooster's thread. You'll get the idea.

    I'd also encourage you to spend some time researching Duran because I'm surprised that you cannot see the profound difference in these careers and in these fighters. I trust that you'll hastily come to same port that the vast majority of posters on this thread have already arrived at (with one -glaring- exception).
     
    Stonehands89, May 20, 2008
    Stonehands89, May 20, 2008
    #40
  11. teeto

    teeto Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    Jones was a great achievement wise also imo, his h2h ability is so great that he can get into top-ten lists for some aswell. At 168 he is top 2 imo, but that division hasnt had much history-wise. The argument could be made for him at top 10 at 175? And overall he was a great, elite fighter. But i just cant rank him over Duran, because we're talking one of the highest tier guys ever, its just Duran, too great imo
     
    teeto, May 20, 2008
    teeto, May 20, 2008
    #41
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Not really. Firstly, we're comparing the highest weight Jones could possibly compete at with Duran not even allowed the biggest fighter he DID face for comparison (175lbs I think). So no, that isn't fair.

    Second, Duran turned pro at around 120. So, again, no, that is not fair.

    Duran fought at lightweight for something like 9 years. Jones fought at MW for considerably less. I don't think it is sensible to suggest that Duran was ageing into the MW division.
     
    McGrain, May 20, 2008
    McGrain, May 20, 2008
    #42
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    A lot of what you say is true, but I think it's just snow. Facts: Leonard had a victory v an ATG fighter when he fought Duran at his absolute prime weight. Duran, too had a victory over a great fighter in DeJesus, but he was fighting two weights north of his best weight. And as you say, he won convincingly next time out (THAT has no baring on the value of the first win, I don't think). So was Leonard still waiting to hit this mythical skill prime when he shut Duran out? Isn't that a bit like wishful thinking? He was at his prime for the one he won, but not for the one he lost? I fear there will be no persuading you, but I think it is a shame you feel it neccesary to downgrade an what is an astonishing achievment by Duran to make a nicer comparison with a fighter I know you are very keen on.

    To restate my position - there are very few wins in the history of the sport as impressive to me as Duran's victory over what I consider to be a peak ATG top 5 welter.

    He's an amazing fighter. One of the best who ever lived. I take him over Tunney and Charles but not Moore, personally. I don't think there as much between our opinions of Jones as there is between our opinions of Roberto Duran.

    I don't know. For a man to turn pro at just above the LMW limit and then take out a respected HW is pretty amazing to me. P4P Hopkins is about a light year ahead, of course, but in real terms....they are the two best wins on Jones resume. I actually pointed out in another thread a couple of days ago that if you are talking about a fighter's best 5 wins, Jones isn't as far behind as you might think. Wasn't that one of yours in fact?

    But eyewitness accounts, most notably Donald McRae, have him as horrifically weight drained and unable to compete. I feel this is the case. I feel he was to weight drained to compete at his best. I don't agree with your position and I suggest you look again.

    I have a very, very high opinion of the man, I consider him one of the 25 best who have ever lived.

    His best weight is just about the youngest division out there. So that is a compliment, but not a huge one.
     
    McGrain, May 20, 2008
    McGrain, May 20, 2008
    #43
  14. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It was actually that thread that made me start this. You made some good points in that one, but I thought you lingered a bit much on the negatives concerning RJJ. I like the discussion in both threads anyway, and for me there isn't a given answer in either one, even if I lean towards Ali and Duran in these comparisons. I'm not trying to wind anyone up, I just think that a guy that was very, very dominant until his mid 30's and who easily beat guys like Toney stands to at least compare with most other greats. Nothing has really made me change that opinion. But this doesn't mean I'm a particular fan of RJJ in any way.
     
    Bokaj, May 21, 2008
    Bokaj, May 21, 2008
    #44
  15. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    At the age of 21 Jones weighed 154lbs, while Duran weighed 135lbs, when Duran started his career he was what 17? Jones fought at 140lbs at 1 stage too it doesnt make it his natural peak weight. Fighters add weight with age.

    Anyway we were comparing the Duran-Barkley, and Jones-Ruiz, Jones had the greater size disadvantage in every aspect, and if were talking quality Barkley wasnt that good, he was 160lbs answer to Gatti, so its similar to Barrera facing Gatti in 2004 instead of Morales
     
    PowerPuncher, May 21, 2008
    PowerPuncher, May 21, 2008
    #45
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