Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mark ant, Dec 25, 2018.
Hill, Maske and Tiozzo in that order.
Maske was rusty and out of. His prime. Hill was out of his prime, too. Still, prime for prime, I think Hill was the overall better fighter with a better record of achievement.
That might be true, but Maske would be the clear favourite, as he is a a lot taller than Toney, with much more range. He can box from the outside, while the flubby head won't come into his right distance. He would not only be outboxed but also outworked, because Toney was a counter-boxer too (as Maske) with a low output (was lazy in the ring) like Kingpin and very little movement (was rather flat-footed). While Henry Maske is even bigger than Michael Nunn, who won most rounds against James Toney, partly easily.
The first fight between Maske and Hill could have gone either way; I had "The Gentleman" narrowly winning it. But the main reason for the decision was, he announced his retirement before this fight.
While he dominated the rematch (similar as vs. Rocchigiani). So he is maybe the best in revenge-matches rather than Tarver was.
Toney beat some excellent southpaws in nunn, Johnson and Jirov. The "Gentleman" was pretty stationary which is what Toney liked. Toney was a master at slipping the jab. Still Maske's tactics and height would present him with some problems. I would pick Toney by decision. That would however be far from certain if the fight is in Germany
Well like Tiberi, Maske might have the same lack of certainty of winning a decision if they fought in AC.
The fights against Johnson (what many here scored even) and Shirov were very close and Nunn was outboxing him comfortable, but run out of the gas-tank. While Maske is bigger than these and has at least better movement than Toney. Henry Maske is a stylistical nightmare, not only for James Toney, but many (or rather most) boxers. In Light-Heavweight would be very little boxers favourite over him; these are Roy Jones Jr. (but he wouldn't be humilated as Toney was), Michael Spinks and maybe Archie Moore (but wouldn't suit him, as tactical counter-boxer).
In fact, Toney was breaking Nunn down. Maske never beat a fighter as skilled as Toney.
Nunn was in fact not in best shape, as he took Toney with ease and didn't train proper. But he was dominating at will till he gassed out and couldn't lose it on points when he was stopped (won about 7 - 9 rounds).
Williams is higher rated than Toney at Light-Heavyweight and has the far bigger achievement there. Also outclassed Maske Hill in March 2006. But Toney never won against a tall (counter-)boxer as Maske, with such (comparable) skillset.
Who says Nunn was not in shape? Every fighter has an excuse, Nunn was unbeaten and in his prime. Toney broke him down, you must have watched a different fight. Nunn was
ahead by 2-3 points but Toney was taking over in the late rounds. No means dominating.
It is funny what you say cause Toney knocked Prince Williams out. So if Williams is Maske's best win, what does that say?
The rematch between Hill - Maske has very little relevance. Both were way past prime.
It was many times here reported, that Nunn had problems in the camp and didn't train proper, what you ignored as all facts.
Also have you rather watched a different fight than most of the world; Nunn Was at least with 97 - 93 leading, even with 3 points would it be a big task, as there were only on and a half round to go. But there was only one rounds which had to go to him, the other two could go either way (this was almost like Froch vs. Taylor).
It says that Williams was weight-drained as I pointed before and that Maske took his soul, when he dominated him as reigning lineal champion. Which the fight vs. Toney was irrelevant, as he never fought before or afterwards in the Super-Middleweight and he was the challenger? Like Maske won more comfortable over Barkley than Toney did one year before, as I pointed before and you like to ignore.
It was one of the most impressive comebacks, if not the most outstanding ever: Hill was current WBA champion at time in Cruiserweight (outclassed the 28 - 0 - 0 Brudov, who was even with Arslan later) and Henry Maske was 124 months inactivity, nobody gave him here a chance and all of you (haters) mean he must be grazy, like Vitaly Klitschk was against Samuel Peter big underdog in the forums too, as it was Arthur Abraham against Jermain Taylor and in the third Stieglitz fight for 90% of the users.
What he did was very special and went down in the books of history. You can't take this away!
Actually, Barkley was the IBF champion and Toney the challenger. So much for your statement that Barkey never fought at supermiddle.
Williams weightdrained? That is news to me. Well, he went a hell of a pace for a weight drained man.
Maske took Williams soul? How so? By outpointing him? What is way more credible is that Toney took Barkley soul by beating him up badly. Barkley then went on to face Maske which was not even a real fight as Barkley had to surrender due to an eye injury uncaused by any of Maske's actions.
Hill beat Maske in his prime. The rematchwin is nice for Sir Henry but carries little relevance as both were past primes.
I'm not sure if you able to read... it was clearly about Williams who never fought at Super-Middleweight, apart of this one.
Barkley fought he just a year after Toney. Maske ein every round against whom, in opposite to Toney.
Maske was jobbed the first time, but the revenge-match was actual more significant historical, as after more than a decade it was complettle unexpected, as Hill kept very active in the meantime and was still top 5 in the weight class, where Henry Maske had never fought before.
Come on man. Maske isnt even close to Nunn in terms of talent .Nunn was twice as fast and moved much better .
Maske never met anyone who was as skilled as Toney .
Barkley was shot when Maske fought him.
Maske made the most of what he had- a tall rangy southpaw .
Hill won their first fight fair and square.There was no controvery about the decision. Maske just turned out to be a bad loser.
Toney beat up Barkley badly and made him quit.Maske did not hurt Barkley, hardly landed any meaningful shots besides his jab, Barkley quit because of an injury not caused by Maske.It is hard to see any logic in your comments.
While you can make the point that this was not William's best weight, he came in highly prepared and motivated against Toney, with the right game plan. This was a big fight for him on the HBO card.
When talking about the Maske-Williams you are conveniently omitting, that Williams was out ouf the ring for 1 1/2 years. That ring rust hurt him. For the Toney fight, Williams had no ring rust.
Also as the other poster said your comparison between Nunn and Maske is a litlle off. They are both tall southpaws.But the Maske is more stationary fighter which suits Toney better and he also does not have the hand speed of Nunn. Now Maske still has some attributes that would present problem to Toney but It think at the end the more skilled fight Toney would eventually win a decision
Not it was because Maske announced his retirement before the fight, though it could have gone either way (a draw would have been possible most fair) and it was not the best performance of him, as he was very nervous (knowing he will never return in the boxring) and had arguable an off-night.
This match-up was worse than Ward vs. Dawson, as the later had fought before (about 6 years) in Super-Middleweight and started as middleweight. While Williams was older, also than against Maske and still rusty, as I think it was not immediately after (narrowly a year later), but he had a tune-up previous the Maske bout, afte the lay-off and was at that point over 8 years undefeated (in opposite to Hill).
Maske was clearly bigger than Nunn and had the much better general ringship (IQ), just as was tactical more clever and smarter. Barkely was against Toney more competitive as it was Williams too; each of them won more rounds against the later one than vs. "The Gentleman". Henry Maske was just a superior boxer and athlete than any version of James Toney, especially in Light-Heavyweight.