Who was better - Peter Jackson or James Corbett?

@janitor ?

 

A champion is within their rights to retire at any age they chose.

Given that Sullivan was by this age an alcoholic, had recently suffered a near fatal bout of typhoid Fever, and had lost much of the mobility in his left arm, it was probably a good time to hand in his chips.

After the Kilrain fight is probably the sweet spot for him.

Without any footage of the Cardiff fight, I don't think you can justify saying that it was a robbery.

In that era draws were given a lot more frequently in close fights anyway.

It could have been made, IF SULLIVAN HAD COME OUT OF RETIRMENT!

The reality is that he was a retired inactive fighter, and under no obligation to entertain fighting Slavin or anybody else!

Presumably you understand that he couldn't fight Jackson while they were on different continents?

It took him 75 rounds to beat Kilrain, because Kilrain got 30 seconds to recover after each knockdown.

We cannot review the records of his mid 80s opposition, because we almost certainly don't have complete records for them.

It is hard to see how his results over this period were mixed, when he never lost .

He came out of retirement to fight Corbett, because he was offered an all time record pay day, and a sum which neither Jackson nor Slavin's backers could match.

Sullivan was the champion at the end of the day, so the onus was on any prospective challenger to come to him.

A champion in that era would not travel overseas, for a fight with a man who did not hold a title claim.

Dooley, Jackson, Slavin et al would all have been well aware of this.

You just don't seem to be able to get your head around the reality of the situation here.

Being retired is not an excuse, it is a fact.

Peter Jackson probably was better than anybody that Sullivan beat, but he was not better qualified to meet him than Kilrain, at the time Sullivan signed to meet Kilrain.

The only way that Sullivan could have fought Jackson without postponing his retirement, would have been by fighting him instead of Kilrain, which would have absolutely been the wrong choice.

Kilrain had a title claim and Jackson didn't.

I really couldn't care less who Sullivan didn't fight between his retirement, and his comeback against Corbett, because they are not contemporary fighter.

In no other era of boxing history, do we measure a champion against men who were contenders while he was retired, or men who he hid the thinned sliver of overlap with at the end of his career.

Why would we treat this as the sole exception?

I think I know the reason why to be honest.

I think it is because you know who Jackson, Slavin and Goddard were, but you don't know who the key contenders during Sullivan's prime were, so you keep retreating back to what you know.

 

This ban has most likely no relation to the claim here, as it was already made in January.

We all know here that this what you published got deleted (by yourself or a moderator). So don't try to trick me here, as you are not smart enough for it!

If I made a screen-shoot of it when it was posted, you should be very cautious what you demand, as you would get even more humilated when it get published again. So you might regard this as a warning.

 

Could have, would have should have. In addition to Jackson it's clear Sullivan missed more talent than he fought, by a wide margin. Not just Jackson. Goddard and Slavin too. All three were better than the men Sullivan beat. Slavin for example thrashed Kilrain far more conclusively that Sullivan did, and Jackson beat Slavin in London in the 1892 fight. He also missed Godfrey. And the slugger for Minnesota. And Dooley. You can't even admit that point blank instead saying there is no film and records are incomplete. That is just your way of avoid the topic without directly saying yes. I get that, but records do not miss out on fights with contenders. These guys that Sullivan fought are lacking records vs each other and as you admitted are very small. Every fighter can claim they retired doesn't mean they are. To say Sullivan was the best around form 1885 is probably correct, but I say the other guys were better as soon as the late 1880's to early 1890's and be correct. After all Sullivan wasn't in good shape then, right? Neither were some of his opponents! I find you a gentleman and that is to be lauded but a baised gentleman toward Sullivan. He's king of an ant until the mid 1880's and fought nobodies who would be crushed by the champions after him for the most part. Yes, I can say he lost the Cardiff fight beside on reports. Big money fights could have been made... More than Cardiff that's for sure. At this point I think this thread is complete. Thanks.

 

Please do make a screen shot of it I'd like to see my "pornographic post",that I and the mods, did NOT delete .Or any other post that you state I was banned for.
So I'm disregarding your warning and challenging you to produce this pornographic post you say I made. or others that resulted in my ban.
The ball is now firmly in your court. PUT UP OR SHUT UP!


We come here to discuss boxing and we have a moron like you doing his best to pollute and ruin every post he can. Why don't you everyone a favour and hold your breath for
10 minutes!

 

Talking to you is a bit like arguing with a brick wall.

Whenever I produce evidence that contradicts your position, you just seem to ignore it, and restate your position.

One more time:

Sullivan retired in July of 1889.

There was a very narrow window where he could have fought Jackson, but it would have been at the cost of fighting Kilrain, who many saw as the real champion.

Goddard didn't even set foot in the USA until Sullivan was training for the Corbett fight.

Slavin didn't set foot in the USA until 1991, when Sullivan had been retired for two years.

Dooley never set foot in the USA period as as far as I can tell.

You can't simply distort time and space, to suit your agenda.

These are not the best men of Sullivan's era, they are the best men of the following era.

With the sole exception of Peter Jackson, it is far from clear that these men were better than the contenders that Sullivan fought before he retired.

With Dooley, Slaivin, Goddard, and Godfrey, you can definitely argue it either way.

Actually it does.

A champion is deemed retired from the moment that the words pass their lips.

Sullivan probably ceased to be the best heavyweight in the world, the instant that his arm broke in the Patsy Cardiff fight.

From that point on he was on borrowed time, and he probably knew it.

The Kilrain fight was probably the perfect time for him to get out, because he had unified every single title claim, and the younger sharks were circling.

That doesn't mean that any of these men would have beaten him min his prime.

Neither does it mean that they were better than the men that he had beaten previously.

Even Peter Jackson's own manager, thought that a prime Sullivan would have beaten him.

By the time of the Corbett fight he was so far gone, that it was probably just a matter of which of the top contenders got him first.

To be honest with you, Sullivan vs Jackson, Sullivan vs Slavin, and Sillivan vs Goddard, are probably no more relevant to history than the fantasy fights that we discuss on this board.

 

Good stuff. I keep meaning to jump in the fray on this one but life has gotten too chaotic at the moment. Anyways, you seem to be hitting all the beats that come to mind.

 

I have to say ,with due deference to H E Grant , your argument is the more convincing and compelling.

 

So Sullivan can't travel but the others guys have to? By the way he fought in the UK in 1888, After he lost but was given the decision to Cardiff. This mean this was his last fight before Corbett. Its B()ll**** saying he wasn't available to fight in 1888, and 1889. You won't acknowledge any of my points such as he missed out on greater talents than he fought, Brick Wall
you are correct.

 

Can you provide us with a primary source that states Cardiff was robbed against Sullivan? Thanks.

 

Traveling overseas back then meant a long ocean voyage, so it was hardly worth doing it for one fight, unless you were challenging for a title.

Let's look at Sullivan's actual travel plans:

With his European tour, he travels to the UK in August of 1887, and returns to the USA in April of 1888.

His engagements in Europe include over fifty exhibitions in the UK, and a title unification fight with Charlie Mitchell in France.

When Jackson, Slavin, and Goddard wanted to challenge for the title, they simply moved their base of operations to the USA.

The world was a bigger place back then.

 

New papers that were covering the fight. The Saint Paul Grove and Minnesota Journal said Cardiff should have been given a decision. The fights took place in Minnesota, USA. Check the archives in Adam Pollck's book as well on Sullivan.

Unlike Sullivan Cardiff meet top completion. The slugger Pat Killen, Peter Jackson, and George Godfrey for example who Sullivan did not meet. All three were top fighter in the timeline. Why Sullivan did meet Killen is unknown as both were active fighters in the mid 1880's.

 

This content is protected

This says all of your contend the best!

You won't make a fool of anybody here, as it is known when it was against the rules, it had to be deleted...

This original posting where was made this claim would have been removed by the stuff, if there was not something true in it, more than two months ago. So it seems they regard you too as divers-pervers...

You won't make me fear!

 

If I looked ,would I find as many papers that state Sullivan deserved the decision?
I believe Kilrain was the foremost contender when Sullivan fought him and recognized as champ by some.I do not yet have Adam's Sullivan book,could you give us a short piece from it that backs up your opinion ?I have always found Adam's work top drawer.
It's very possible that Jackson would have beaten Sullivan at the end of Sullivan's career imo but during the time their careers overlapped Jackson was not the standout out challenger. I have to look up Killen, he is only a name to me.
I do agree with Janitor that the onus was on Jackson and Godfrey to travel to the US if they wanted title shots.

 

So absolutely NOTHING FROM YOU to back up your ludicrous dribblings.
No surprise there then! lol .
YOU ARE DISMISSED
Back to real posters who want to discuss BOXING