Who was closest to being 'unknockoutable'?

Don't forget Frazier and Norton. Sure Norton fought a faded Ali, but he still hurt him pretty bad. Ali wasn't exactly running his big mouth off when his jaw got busted (understandably)

 

Duo's right, Sims was on the deck vs Czyz.

 

These threads almost always mean in a p4p sense. Otherwise HW's would always land at the top for chin, power, and physical strength. They would also be the "best" fighters of all time, in a head-to-head sense -which is patenly ridiculous because they are perhaps the worst division, at least historically.

 

It would have been interesting to see Hagler's chins tested by big punchers at light heavyweight.

 

really? interesting fact i did not know. i didn't think floyd patterson was a very popular champion because he is one of the least regarded in terms of head to head amongst the champions.

btw...to those questioning ali: in measuring how hard it is to KO someone - it helps that person if he is a great fighter (as in what is the chance you'll win by a KO loss against this guy). ali had the long arms and the skills to keep dangerous punchers like foreman or frazier at bay and occupied and very few hard reach advantages over him. roberto duran did not have those qualities that i described and that is why he was smashed by hearns despite his chin. same thing with frazier - he had the chin and all but if he had ali's reach foreman would have never done that to him.

yes, people hurt him (but these guys would have hurt ANYONE including p4p hagler IMO - don't tell me that Marvin wasn't hurt as early as round 2 (understandable!) againt Hearns when Hearns broke his hand after repeated wicked punches) but they were 1000 miles away from finishing. ali was like that candle that never went out. to hurt ali is one thing, to KO him is another. the man had sheer magic - the longest time he was on the canvas i think is 2 or 4 seconds!

 

no it would not. it'd be sad, sick, and unfair. it'd be like spinks against tyson.

 

Place yourself in the climate of the times. It helps to remember that Floyd was accepted by mainstream culture as bearer of the most valued distinction in sports. Between Louis and Frazier, he was really the only man of African ethnicity who was. Charles was trapped by the hangover from Louis. When Walcott was dominating his title defense against Marciano, people in the crowd were beginning to compare Jersey Joe to Gans, but even if Walcott had kayoed Rocky late, he would have been too old to inspire youthful fight fans, and he never could have come to be regarded as anything more than a transitional champion. Marciano could never become an icon to black youth in an ethnically polarized culture, while Liston and Ali were both outside the cultural mainstream during the mid 1960s. Liston was an ex-con, and Ali went from emulation of Gorgeous George to promote himself, then to membership in the Nation of Islam, then to refusing military induction. Like Louis, SRR was then an aging icon of the WW II generation of fans. Patterson represented youth, promise, and acceptance, rather than persecution and defiance. For youngsters like Clay and Hagler, the idea of being received by a JFK was more desirable than being forced to the back of a bus. Given the choice, most people would prefer to be accepted, before embracing rejection, agitation, and defiance.

When Liston was preparing to challenge Patterson for the championship, he hired young Clay on as a sparring partner. Because Cassius then idolized Patterson, he was emulating Floyd's peek-a-boo style at the time. This interested Sonny, who was able to practice swinging down at a low target. (This is a very well known story, and there are plenty of old boxing magazines in places like antique shops which have photographs of the two sparring. Of course, it's perfectly common and unavoidable for a champion to employ an eventual conqueror, or otherwise future titlist. Just goes with the territory.)

Like Louis, Patterson made the idea of a black HW Champ palatable to the ethnic majority of the public. If Peter Jackson had preceded Jack Johnson to universal recognition, or if Johnson's public conduct had mirrored that of Jackson, Louis, and Patterson, then Harry Wills and Sam Langford would have certainly obtained the title shots they deserved. Liston and Ali were able to secure championship bids, in large part because of the path Floyd kept open. Liston won the title specifically because Patterson chose to grant him a match, just as Tommy Burns did Jack Johnson over half a century earlier (albeit for a huge payoff). By thus restoring the integrity of the HW Title, Patterson and Burns earned IBHOF inclusion. (Patterson and D'Amato also for skipping business with Jim Norris and the IBC.)

Ali has said that Patterson had the best boxing skills of anybody he faced in the squared circle. Floyd was always in superb condition, and achieved remarkable success, despite his limited size and ability to take a punch. In many respects, he was an excellent practical and instructive example of exemplary conduct, in and out of the ring.

For whatever it's worth, my two cents. You can conclude for yourself whether or not this would make sense, within the context of that period in time.

 

First i've heard of that and i've read many books on Ali. Who else knows about this? Sounds unlikely IMO but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

I'm sure somebody on the boards has a profile photo of the two of them in headgear sparring together, young Clay lowered in peek-a-boo posture.

 

You think? There's only a 15 pound gap between MW and LHW. Would the hardest LHWs in history really punch that much harder than Hearns, Hart or Mugabi? I don't think so. I think Hagler would take the best that the likes of Foster or Spinks could throw at him myself.

 

Rare is the time we disagree, but personally i think Spinks and Foster hit substancially harder than these guys. I truly can see Spinks and Foster doing things to Hagler never seen before. Both did spectacular things to natural 175 pounders with fine chins. I'm in the minority but i can definitely envision Spinks stopping Hagler if he gets his big shots in.

 

Fair enough JT. I'm thinking that 175lbs is only about a 9% increase in weight over 160lbs but another factor is that many LHWs won't actually be weighing 175lbs by fight time. Of course some MWs will also be well over 160lbs by fight time also. I think we have to give Hagler the benefit of the doubt here, seeing as he was hardly hurt at MW. We saw that Hearns could hurt durable LHWs. He floored Dennis Andries no less than 6 times when previously Dennis Andries had only been floored by a full-blown heavyweight in Dave Pearce. Of course the extra 15 lbs (or 13lbs in Tommy's case as he couldn't even reach the LHW limit) meant that Tommy punched harder but that much harder? Absolutely no doubt that Spinks or Foster would hurt Hagler as he had never been hurt before but stop him? I dunno.

 

If Spinks or Foster landed the punches Tommy did vs Andries he would have been carried out on a stretcher IMO, and you know i love Tommy. Spinks P4P power matched the best of Tommy's at any weight i believe. It was sick. Not being cheeky of course, but how many fights of Michael's have you seen at 175?

 

I don't mind a bit of cheek John, especially if we're talking about the cheeks in our avatars. :yep Admitedly not many mate. I've no doubt at all that Spinks punched harder than Tommy at LHW. No doubt at all. I still believe we have to give Hagler the benefit of the doubt though. I wouldn't be surprised though if Spinks (or Foster etc) did stop Marv at the higher weight.