Who was closest to being 'unknockoutable'?

I believe you've been inconsistent in following your own logic as I do not understand purposely excluding Muhammad Ali. Perhaps he is not possessed of the same remarkable traits of Hagler, but he is definitely worthy of inclusion as far as I'm concerned.

You point to the times he was visibly shaken, that is indicative of an imperfect chin; durability, as you yourself cited, is not the sole criterion in consideration and even scrupulous consideration will not find Ali lacking in this department. Ali had all the qualifications. In any event, any boxer can be stopped under the right set of circumstances especially in the heavyweight division.

There is an infallible way of proving all this and that is that he was never knocked out in all the numerous times he was hurt. He overcame being knocked down against Cooper, Bank, and Frazier, or so you might remember. He was never stopped in his prime, never stopped after, and then only stopped when he was terribly ill.

 

Fenech broke his hands on anyone and everyone.

 

To be perfectly honest Ray Mercer was lucky that his fight against Evander Holyfield was only 10 rounds as opposed to 12 otherwise he would have been stopped. Don't get me wrong he has a stellar chin but no where near "unknockoutable".

 

Surprised none of the fanboys have mentioned Margarito...

 

Did you happen to miss Mercer's fights with Morrison and Cooper?

Cooper hit him so ****in' hard Mercer was being lifted off his feet.

 

I've watched the Morrison fight probably a couple of dozen times and the Cooper fight quite a few times as well. He had a solid tier I chin but he could be KO'd.

 

Being "unknockoutable" is more of a styles thing than a durability thing.

I'll throw two out there - Floyd Mayweather Jr. at 130 and James Toney at 168.

 

It's the temporalis muscle covering the temple area. Hagler's was found to be unusually thick. It's mentioned in "Sorcery at Caesers". Apparently Hagler wanted it kept quiet because he was concerned that racial comments might be made about his unusual physical attribute. Hearns mentioned after the fight Hagler's ridiculously hard head. Marvelous Marv's tremendous temporalis might have had something to do with it.

Great thread by the way !!

 

Juan LaPorte deserves another mention. Especially since he was never knocked off his feet I don't believe and he fought a huge array of punchers.

 

Thank you for affirming that Dave!:good (Better yet, you did it by referencing a book which was a full year away from being published when I first mentioned that fact in post #86 of this thread.)

Now, if only somebody can produce that photograph of Liston sparring with young Clay in training for Patterson. (I still haven't relocated the specific old boxing magazine of mine which contains that particular article yet.)

The Boston newspaper in which I first read the story about Hagler's head scan reported that he and his camp received this information in good humor, but deigned to make any kind of noteworthy discussion over this revelation. For that reason, most outside of Marv's New England base either never knew about it, or dismissed it as hyperbole. But all boxing fans in Massachusetts and surrounding states were fully aware of it at the time.

While Hagler and the Petronellis were more than happy to accommodate press coverage of Marv's disciplined training and conditioning regimen, some rumour mongers speculated that they were reticent about the discovery of his "natural headgear" because they were using some technology like transcranial electro-stimulation to strengthen and thicken his temporalis, something they wanted to keep secret from opposing camps to maintain a unique advantage. These theorists also supposed that his head was kept shaved for the purpose of having electrodes attached to his scalp for these treatments.

Although certain exercises and modalities can indeed be applied to the specific objective of thickening this challenging to develop musculature, it was probably an inherent trait in his genes, a genetic endowment apparently shared by some extent with his half brother Robbie.


When considering the question of imperviousness, the ability to withstand body punishment has to be taken into account. Willie Pastrano would easily merit consideration if not for the left hook to the labonza Jose Torres dropped him with, or the one Joe Frazier sent Jerry Quarry to a knee with.

On this and other Classic threads, Juan LaPorte has not been overlooked, and he squared off with a number of murderous body punchers.

Because of a single match, I'm bringing up the name of Roy "Tiger" Williams. For eight rounds, he absorbed massive right hand after massive right hand to the body from Earnie Shavers. "Kill the body, and the head will die," does not always work, and despite Earnie's relentless and highly intelligent attack, Tiger came back in round nine almost as if the previous 24 minutes of action had not taken place at all. Immediately after Shavers experienced the unfamiliar ritual of touching gloves to begin the final round, he got knocked to a neutral corner with a nasty cross, leading to a standing knockdown. Despite the incredible body beating Williams had sustained, he had the energy to raise his arms aloft in triumph as the count began, energy Shavers would not be able to match at the conclusion of the round.

Seven seconds after referee Buddy Basilico finished the eight count, Earnie came off the ropes with a right which nailed Williams on the sweet spot of the chin as the big man was closing in for the kill. Ten seconds after that, Roy had him pinned in the other neutral corner, pounding away with hooks and crosses. After the referee broke the subsequent clinch, Shavers hammered away with more huge rights downstairs as they both staggered about the ring. Finally, Earnie pinned him in the same corner where Shavers himself had taken the count at the beginning of the round, and raked Tiger over the ropes as "washerwoman" Chuvalo once worked over DeJohn.

Just as Henry Clark did in Earnie's previous outing, Williams dropped to the deck several seconds after Shavers stopped punching him, a rather unusual sort of delayed reaction which sometimes seemed unique to Earnie's victims. But Tiger came within 20 seconds of finishing the scheduled distance on his feet, and nearly took Shavers out as the final stanza began.

Nobody ever stood up to the same amount of punishment from Earnie that Williams did, and that was the most relentless sustained barrage Shavers ever produced. Future victim Ken Norton (who was ironically providing color commentary for the Shavers/Williams telecast) would later be dropped by a single Shavers right to his muscular body, the same right which he witnessed Tiger withstand dozens of. This was the very best version of Earnie, well conditioned, and with recent ten round experience against Henry Clark and Rochelle Norris, trials which aided him in battling through the type of situation where ringside spectator Foreman had earlier wilted in submission to Ali.

Earnie did not enjoy the advantages in skill, size, chin, youth or physical strength that Foreman possessed going into Kinshasa. But Shavers had squared off with much harder competition, understood what it was like to be extended, stunned, exhausted and defeated, and knew how to hang on when necessary. At 31, he could claim a maturity which George lacked in Africa. Earnie was far more ringwise and intelligent in his execution, and did not mentally fall apart when Williams repeatedly took the very best he had.

I believe Foreman would have certainly defeated more of the other great heavyweights in history, but I doubt he could have done as well against Ali as Shavers managed in his first title bid. Earnie buckled Muhammad repeatedly, in a way he wasn't able to do to Williams, despite delivering much more punishment to Tiger. Only a GOAT caliber hitter like Shavers, or a GOAT caliber combination puncher like Joe Louis would have had a chance to take out Roy Williams when Earnie barely managed to pull it off.

 

Great stuff, Duodenum.

On Shaver's and people absorbing his freakish shots...

Didn't Ron Stander exhaust Shaver's before stopping him in 5 using no other strategy but catching punches with his face?

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the extent of it, because I have seen Stander/Norton and the punishment Stander takes without even looking like going down is unbelievable.

 

I imagine this was indeed the case with Stander/Shavers, combined with the lack of experience and sufficient conditioning Earnie would later bring to bear against Williams.

Russ, did you manage to have a gander at Frazier/Stander before those litigious punks now running youtube had it pulled? Big Ron hardly took a step backwards in that one, actually forcing Joe to his toes to utilize lateral movement and angles. Just like Quarry, Ron's facial skin let him down against Smoke in a way he managed to avoid with Earnie. If that happens to the wrong part of the head, toughness doesn't help very much.

Watching Frazier outmaneuver Stander with such surprising grace and ease at the end of round five with his back to the corner makes it more understandable why the outcome of his next bout was such a surprise to so many. After all, if he could do it with Stander, why shouldn't he be able to repeat that mobile performance with Foreman? (In his rematch with George, an older and heavier Joe actually outweighed Foreman by a half pound, yet nearly negotiated his way past the middle rounds with elusive movement. A younger, pre FOTC Frazier, around 200 pounds, might just have been able to carry it off. If Joe was still on his feet after ten rounds, George may have found himself drowning in the deep water of attrition at the Nassau Coliseum.)

 

Personally i would have been scared to see Foreman fighting the version of Ali Shavers did. Ali's reflexes were all but gone at that point.

And on the Williams point, i'd back Tyson at his best to take him out, especially given his stamina issues. Foreman, Liston and numerous others would be a great chance of turning the trick too IMO. Shavers is the only hard punching contender he ever fought and he got stopped. Earnie's delivery was harder comparable to even Foreman and Liston.

 

Personally, I find it more horrifying to rewatch Shavers fighting the version of Ali who lost the title to Leon Spinks in his next defense.

Foreman hammered Ali's body, but rarely got off a solid shot to his head. When Ali defeated Leon, and in his final match with Berbick, it was obvious he was misfiring, but his head remained an elusive target. (In fact, I scored Ali/Berbick 97-93 in favor of Muhammad, but was relieved the judges saw it differently, as his retirement was long overdue. But if anybody who hasn't seen it scores it with the sound off and an open mind, they might be surprised at the result of their tabulations.)

Unlike George, Earnie kept landing stunning singular right hands to Ali's head, but lacked the true sense of recognizing when he was in genuine distress. (This is not entirely unknown among one punch specialists. Combination punchers like Louis sometimes tend to be more proficient at this.) Earnie had faster hands and longer arms than George.

I think Sonny would choose an easy decision behind his ramrod jab over attempting to take Williams out.

My suspicion is that George wanted no part of Tiger after watching him absorb Earnie's bombs. He'd had enough of somebody taking his best without flinching, and was probably having some very unpleasant flashbacks, causing him to leave ringside before it was over.

Tyson would definitely NOT take Roy Williams out in my estimation, any more than he was able to take out Mitch Green, Tony Tucker or Bonecrusher Smith. As was the case in those three instances, Mike would settle for a comfortable decision. Tiger's height posed problems for Earnie. Not only is Tyson not as tall as Shavers, but he has much shorter arms, and could be physically neutralized in close. Even a rusty and poorly prepared Holmes just going through the motions of collecting a three million dollar payday gave Mike some difficulty with his height and reach.

As Larry openly and humorously admits, NOBODY wanted to fight Tiger Williams, himself included. Earnie was coaxed by Ali into taking him on with the promise of a title shot should he win. It's not Tiger's fault that everybody was ducking him! (Then again, maybe he deserves some of the blame for scaring the hell out of the other heavyweights by the way he stood up to Shavers. Williams was only 29 years old at the time, and top contenders weren't exactly beating a path to his door afterwards.)

Jeff Merritt and Walter Moore also had pretty decent firepower among Tiger's other opponents. After he got through with the Futch trained 18-0-0 Moore, what sane contender would have been willing to tangle with him?

Yeah, Shavers did manage to knock him out, but only after an all out eight round attack, and barely within the ten round limit after nearly being stopped himself.

Ducking rugged challenges is one thing, but what conclusions are we to form when the gladiator in question is the one being avoided?

 

Offhand, prime Hagler.