Who was the best bantamweight ever?

My2Sense · Nov 16, 2008

For me, bantamweight is the hardest of any of the major divisions to pick an all time #1.

It seems to me that all the other major divisions seem to have one, maybe two standout fighters that are widely considered to be the best there - ie: Charles at LHW, Robinson at WW, Duran at lightweight, Pep & Saddler at featherweight, Jimmy Wilde at flyweight, etc. etc. ...but bantamweight seems to me to be the only of the major divisions that lacks that one standout star. Maybe that's just me... but I'm very curious to know what others here think about that.

Anyway, who is your pick as the best? I listed a few that are considered among the best, but it's hard for me personally to pick a definite #1. It seems like most of the names here all have some kind of strike against their legacies. For example, Ruben Olivares looked awesome for a few brief years, but then he suddenly lost twice to Rafael Herrera (once by KO), who was the first fighter to really take the fight to him and match him at his own game, and he never really was the same after that, despite a "second career" up at featherweight. Similarly, Jofre failed twice to beat Harada, who was the first of only two HOFers that Jofre ever fought in his career (and the only one that was still in his prime). Yes, I know Jofre was having trouble making weight then, I know he looked sluggish in at least one (if not both) of those fights, I know both fights were very close, I know those are his only losses, and I know he had an impressive comeback up at featherweight... but still, something just irks me about his record goes down as being 0-2 against the only HOF bantam he ever fought. Zarate has the distinction of having won the all-important "Battle of the Z Boys" and never losing as a bantam except on that very questionable decision vs. Pintor (a very good bantam in himself). But in between, Zarate heavily padded his record, fighting unknowns whose records were reported as 50-2 yet are only known to have a few fights (and more than just the couple losses that were reported). After getting crushed by Gomez, it seemed to me that he lost his fire. I did think he beat Pintor, but it was still a close-ish fight and a very tentative and un-Zarate like performance, and after that he retired while still considered smack dab in his prime. I know he claimed to be retiring because he was disgusted by the decision, but I oftern suspected myself that he may have retired because he lost a bit of his will to fight after the Gomez fight.

On a side note, what do people think of the prospect of rating Manny Ortiz as the best? I asked that question on another site a while back, and it was greeted with a bit of derision. What do people think of Ortiz, and is there a collective reason why people might not think so highly of him as compared to the others on this list?

mcvey · Nov 17, 2008

My2Sense said:

For me, bantamweight is the hardest of any of the major divisions to pick an all time #1.

It seems to me that all the other major divisions seem to have one, maybe two standout fighters that are widely considered to be the best there - ie: Charles at LHW, Robinson at WW, Duran at lightweight, Pep & Saddler at featherweight, Jimmy Wilde at flyweight, etc. etc. ...but bantamweight seems to me to be the only of the major divisions that lacks that one standout star. Maybe that's just me... but I'm very curious to know what others here think about that.

Anyway, who is your pick as the best? I listed a few that are considered among the best, but it's hard for me personally to pick a definite #1. It seems like most of the names here all have some kind of strike against their legacies. For example, Ruben Olivares looked awesome for a few brief years, but then he suddenly lost twice to Rafael Herrera (once by KO), who was the first fighter to really take the fight to him and match him at his own game, and he never really was the same after that, despite a "second career" up at featherweight. Similarly, Jofre failed twice to beat Harada, who was the first of only two HOFers that Jofre ever fought in his career (and the only one that was still in his prime). Yes, I know Jofre was having trouble making weight then, I know he looked sluggish in at least one (if not both) of those fights, I know both fights were very close, I know those are his only losses, and I know he had an impressive comeback up at featherweight... but still, something just irks me about his record goes down as being 0-2 against the only HOF bantam he ever fought. Zarate has the distinction of having won the all-important "Battle of the Z Boys" and never losing as a bantam except on that very questionable decision vs. Pintor (a very good bantam in himself). But in between, Zarate heavily padded his record, fighting unknowns whose records were reported as 50-2 yet are only known to have a few fights (and more than just the couple losses that were reported). After getting crushed by Gomez, it seemed to me that he lost his fire. I did think he beat Pintor, but it was still a close-ish fight and a very tentative and un-Zarate like performance, and after that he retired while still considered smack dab in his prime. I know he claimed to be retiring because he was disgusted by the decision, but I oftern suspected myself that he may have retired because he lost a bit of his will to fight after the Gomez fight.

On a side note, what do people think of the prospect of rating Manny Ortiz as the best? I asked that question on another site a while back, and it was greeted with a bit of derision. What do people think of Ortiz, and is there a collective reason why people might not think so highly of him as compared to the others on this list?
Click to expand...

Ortiz was a very busy fighter who makes my top 10 ,some of his opponents were not of Championship calibre ,but he fought often ,and in the other guys back yard sometimes .I put him short of the top 5 myself.
Jofre
Olivares
Zarate my top 3.

Adaptation · Nov 17, 2008

1.Eder Jofre
2.Fighting Harada
3.Ruben Olivares
4.Carlos Zarate
5.Rafael Herrera
6.Rafael Marquez
7.Paulie Ayala
8.Jeff Chandler
9.Orlando Canizales
10.Tim Austin

This is my top 10 1960 and up. Its quickly drafted, i would have to do some research(especially from 6-10, i could review it more carefully). Im not to familiar with the pre-60's fighter but i know that.

Panana Al brown&Manuel Ortiz would have to be top 5
Pete Herman makes 8-10.

Al brown takes it down, because he was really in a class of his own but due to lack of footage, i find it hard to judge.

In my opinion, it always comes down to Harada vs Jofre. Head to Head yes Harada beat him twice, but Jofre resume is better and i have a feeling that if Harada fought Jofre earlier, he would have lost(aka tarver-jones jr)

AlFrancis · Nov 17, 2008

Adaptation said:

1.Eder Jofre
2.Fighting Harada
3.Ruben Olivares
4.Carlos Zarate
5.Rafael Herrera
6.Rafael Marquez
7.Paulie Ayala
8.Jeff Chandler
9.Orlando Canizales
10.Tim Austin

This is my top 10 1960 and up. Its quickly drafted, i would have to do some research(especially from 6-10, i could review it more carefully). Im not to familiar with the pre-60's fighter but i know that.

Panana Al brown&Manuel Ortiz would have to be top 5
Pete Herman makes 8-10.

Al brown takes it down, because he was really in a class of his own but due to lack of footage, i find it hard to judge.

In my opinion, it always comes down to Harada vs Jofre. Head to Head yes Harada beat him twice, but Jofre resume is better and i have a feeling that if Harada fought Jofre earlier, he would have lost(aka tarver-jones jr)
Click to expand...

No room for Lupe Pintor?

Sweet Pea · Nov 17, 2008

I'm amazed that Olivares hasn't gotten a single vote yet. I rate him above Zarate clearly.

teeto · Nov 17, 2008

Sweet Pea said:

I'm amazed that Olivares hasn't gotten a single vote yet. I rate him above Zarate clearly.
Click to expand...

You would!

(kidding)

AlFrancis · Nov 17, 2008

Sweet Pea said:

I'm amazed that Olivares hasn't gotten a single vote yet. I rate him above Zarate clearly.
Click to expand...

He has now.

janitor · Nov 17, 2008

None of the above.

George Dixon takes the crown.

Robbi · Nov 17, 2008

Panama Al Brown was a freak of nature for a bantamweight. He'd probably give everyone hell on the list H2H. His height and all round game as solid. It's a shame he died so young.

mcvey · Nov 17, 2008

Robbi said:

Panama Al Brown was a freak of nature for a bantamweight. He'd probably give everyone hell on the list H2H. His height and all round game as solid. It's a shame he died so young.
Click to expand...

He would give them hell ,if he caught them bending over ,thats for sure !

mcvey · Nov 17, 2008

Sweet Pea said:

I'm amazed that Olivares hasn't gotten a single vote yet. I rate him above Zarate clearly.
Click to expand...

My number 2

Stonehands89 · Nov 17, 2008

My2Sense said:

For me, bantamweight is the hardest of any of the major divisions to pick an all time #1.

It seems to me that all the other major divisions seem to have one, maybe two standout fighters that are widely considered to be the best there - ie: Charles at LHW, Robinson at WW, Duran at lightweight, Pep & Saddler at featherweight, Jimmy Wilde at flyweight, etc. etc. ...but bantamweight seems to me to be the only of the major divisions that lacks that one standout star. Maybe that's just me... but I'm very curious to know what others here think about that.

Anyway, who is your pick as the best? I listed a few that are considered among the best, but it's hard for me personally to pick a definite #1. It seems like most of the names here all have some kind of strike against their legacies. For example, Ruben Olivares looked awesome for a few brief years, but then he suddenly lost twice to Rafael Herrera (once by KO), who was the first fighter to really take the fight to him and match him at his own game, and he never really was the same after that, despite a "second career" up at featherweight. Similarly, Jofre failed twice to beat Harada, who was the first of only two HOFers that Jofre ever fought in his career (and the only one that was still in his prime). Yes, I know Jofre was having trouble making weight then, I know he looked sluggish in at least one (if not both) of those fights, I know both fights were very close, I know those are his only losses, and I know he had an impressive comeback up at featherweight... but still, something just irks me about his record goes down as being 0-2 against the only HOF bantam he ever fought. Zarate has the distinction of having won the all-important "Battle of the Z Boys" and never losing as a bantam except on that very questionable decision vs. Pintor (a very good bantam in himself). But in between, Zarate heavily padded his record, fighting unknowns whose records were reported as 50-2 yet are only known to have a few fights (and more than just the couple losses that were reported). After getting crushed by Gomez, it seemed to me that he lost his fire. I did think he beat Pintor, but it was still a close-ish fight and a very tentative and un-Zarate like performance, and after that he retired while still considered smack dab in his prime. I know he claimed to be retiring because he was disgusted by the decision, but I oftern suspected myself that he may have retired because he lost a bit of his will to fight after the Gomez fight.

On a side note, what do people think of the prospect of rating Manny Ortiz as the best? I asked that question on another site a while back, and it was greeted with a bit of derision. What do people think of Ortiz, and is there a collective reason why people might not think so highly of him as compared to the others on this list?
Click to expand...

A stand-out introduction to a thread!

Manuel Ortiz at the top slot doesn't both me. He had about 20 defenses over 2 reigns and was exceptionally strong. He's a lock for the greatest American BW ever in my book. My preference would be Eder Jofre however. Unbeaten in his first 50, considered the best in the world in the early 60s, and was a boxer-puncher par excellence. I am not too bothered by his twice losing to Harada. Styles make fights and Harada was hell inside and hard to hurt. He circled relentlessly behind a busy jab and Jofre who was no speed demon had trouble setting himself. And he was getting spun. Even so, Jofre almost had him gone a couple of times in the fight but Harada somehow took monster shots in combination. What cements him for me is the fact that he came back after three years of inactivity and became FW champion again -at 37.

PS/There was some talk of a Zarate misfortune that may have impacted his performance against Gomez. He supposedely trained with a faulty scale and as a result had to lose weight on the day of the weigh-in.

PSS/ a "no-prize" for anyone who can name the man Pep said was the first man he sparred with.

Holmes' Jab · Nov 17, 2008

My humble opinion:

1a. Ortiz
1b. Jofre
2. Olivares
3. Zarate

Stonehands89 · Nov 17, 2008

Al Brown, friend of Ernest Hemingway, fluent in 7 languages, and probably homosexual. 167 fights. Never stopped... defying the pugilistic wisdom that guys with scrawny necks and narrow chins are habitually horizontal. His competition was less than stellar, but he was champ for 6 years. For those not familiar with him:

[YT]0GXHhmXvZAg&feature=related[/YT]

Bad_Intentions · Nov 17, 2008

lupe pintor

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