Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courage

do a google search on elijah muhammad and farakhan killing malcolm X also look into the black panthers, to the average guy going to meetings and praying no it wasnt but anyone at or near the top was very much so a hate figure imo.

 

His first wife killed herself because she was persecuted for loving a black man, persecuted by both blacks ,and whites. Johnson's last wife was asked at his funeral what she particularly admired about him. She replied ," I admired him for his courage , he wasn't afraid of anything".

I thnk you need to do some research before pontificating on John Arthur Johnson.

 

Good Man !:good

 

She killed herself because of the depression she was suffering from thanks to all of the beatings he gave her.

 

Another hater, welcome to the club ,you have some buddies here.

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You're deliberately obfuscating and confusing two things, Burt.

No one that I have seen has suggested that Ali claimed conscientious objector status (which is far different from dodging the draft, as you well know) because Rosa Parks was forced to sit in the back of the bus.

The question, which I and others have posed, is if you really think Rosa Parks was wrong to defy an evil law to get it changed -- which she did, with the help of a boycott.

Kind of hard in those days for African Americans to change things in the Old South at the voting booth -- ole Jim Crowe wouldn't allow them to register, and even when that began to change there were fire hoses and attacks and intimidation (like blowing up churches and killing people, for instance) to keep them from exercising their civil and human rights.

So please give a direct answer -- was Rosa Parks wrong to defy the law and refuse to go to the back of the bus?

That's QUESTION ONE.

Now on to Ali -- what exactly did he do that was illegal? He claimed conscientious objector status when he was drafted. That was legal. Many others had done so and did so later. The draft had a process by which one could refuse induction on that basis.

His claim was denied. So he appealed. And he WON the appeal, which means that refusal of his objector status was UNCONSTITUTIONAL. The Supreme Effing Court said so.

So now comes Question Two:

What was illegal about what Ali did? When it was all decided, wasn't the ruling of the Supreme Court that his objector status be affirmed? Is legally appealing a ruling somehow illegal in your mind?

Which brings us to Question Three:

Being that the people who denied his objector status were ruled by the highest court in the land to have unconstitutionally denied him, wasn't the draft board that denied him the one acting illegally? Therefore, aren't they the ones who you should be denouncing with your law-and-order diatribe?

And one more. This would be Question Four:

What chaos ensued from Ali following the legal recourse available to him to appeal to the courts? Did the heavens fall? Did America collapse?

I ask because this country was built on dissent and civil disobedience (see my earlier statement about the Founding Fathers breaking British law to gain our freedom from taxation without representation to form this great land). Were they wrong to do so? From the ashes of their anarchy came a constitution upon which the basic human rights recognized around the world were derived (and yes, it was a flawed document due to division over the slavery issue, and it took far too long to correct those wrongs, but it set us on the path to true freedom -- which allows us to debate these issues).

Nobody likes change, for the most part. But there is no progress without change.

Without Rosa Parks taking a stand, we might have the same segregation laws today that existed in her day.

Chew on that for a minute.

I like you, Burt, I really do. You're one of my favorite posters on this forum, probably my overall fave. Your posts on the dusty days at Stillmans give me great pleasure. But I strongly disagree with you on this one. I hope you'll do me a solid and tackle my questions head-on, 'cause this type of reasoned discourse is what freedom is all about.

Peaceout, friend.

 

Saintpat, as in the Godfather,these words express my sentiments. "just as soon as I want to get out, they [you] pull me back in". I am tired from
being the one poster defending the notion that Clay/Ali's refusal to serve was NOT, I repeat NOT an act of integrity...The 15 round bout is over, and I have retired to my dressing room, whilst you enter the ring fresh and ready for combat...So, I bid adios with one thought in mind...I am refusing to pay my 2012 IRS tax on the grounds of " civil disobediance ". What's good for the goose is good for the gander, I say...Then according to your rules of change, I could also be a man of "integrity"...One other thing
before i remove my mouthpiece, my point of view during those hectic days was the MAJORITY sentiment of the vast American public and I can live with that...
P.S. Maybe I and my generation still kicking have overstayed my time on ESB...I am becoming weary of this political garbage, and am pondering a change of venue...No fun being an abberation on ESB...Cheers..But I have my memory's to console me..:hi:

 

That isn't quite the way it happened.

The Supreme Court did not rule that Ali's claim to be a conscientious objector was valid. It ruled that the Justice Department had committed a technical error in it's handling of his appeal.



In fact, Ali's claim to being a conscientious objector was not legally valid.

One of the tests that a conscientious objector must meet is:

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Ali had admitted this was not his view. His mouth was his own worst enemy.

"War is against the teachings of the Holy Qu'ran. I'm not trying to dodge the draft. We are not supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger. We don't take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers." Ali also famously said in 1966: "I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong ... They never called me ******"



Ali would have taken part in a war declared by Allah or the "Messenger".

He further suggests that if he did have a quarrel with "them Viet Cong" or if one of them called him ******, he might well engage in a war against them.

Those are not the words of a conscientious objector.

 

Just to set the record straight, Burt, I was in there jabbing and moving in the early rounds of this thread.

I'd much rather discuss boxing than politics or philosophies, so I say go out on your feet if go you must.

But allow me to hijack this thread and ask you, Burt, to riddle me this:

Your top 10 fighters from Stillman's, pound for pound, ranked top to tenth.

 

That is a point over which parties can disagree. The recommendation was for objector status to be granted. The decision not to grant was political.

The three criteria are what THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT STATED in a letter, not something written on stone and handed down from the mountain, not something codified in law.

In fact, before the Supreme Court, the Justice Department did an about-face and conceded that Ali's plea for objector was sincere and based upon religious teachings.

And the Justice Department also argued that Ali did not meet the criteria you mentioned. And the Supreme Court heard that very argument .. and ruled in Ali's favor rather than in favor of the Justice Department.

Ali UD Justice Department, by shutout.

 

Couragewise only Schmeling (second Louis fight, not the fight itself but fighting in a extreme hostile, potentially violent environment). So, he deserves to be there. Less controversial than Ali IMO.

When it comes to moral integrity it´s true he shouldn´t be anywhere near a list like that.

 

Post of the month:good

 

Excellent post :good :good

I can understand why some would say Ali's stand against the draft was n't heroic,but I think those who villify him for it are wrong. Pure and simple.

 

Burt - Listen to me........Read my lips You are not leaving this forum. Ya hear me ? You are NOT leaving this forum. Some things you say I agree with,and others I don't. That is the beauty of democracy. You always put your case over very articulately.

 

Stevie, thank you for your kind sentiments, but arguing politics at my stage of life is not something i relish...Like baying at the moon...Particularly
when I am from a different era that had values by and large so contrary to
today's "anything goes" philosophy...I LOVE the history of boxing, because since a young tyke I have been exposed to it...I have seen some of the
legendary fighters of the 1940s ringside,and the memory's of their bouts
sustain me to this day...So S, politic bickering is not my forte, and it drains me, because coming from the WW2 era as a youngster, those values of those days clash with the NOW generation in such a fashion that I now feel like an ice cube in a Turkish Bath....Cheers S.:good