Who was the best of the rest in the Holmes era?

I'm pretty sure that you've asked me this question before. Pinklon had a tight match with a seemingly out of it Witherspoon (He looks drugged up the entire fight) and won by a couple rounds to get a damn good win- But I still believe that he'd lose against a peak Witherpsoon from the Holmes fight.
I had the fight 117-114 for Thomas, which is good, but against a non peak Witherspoon. Then add onto that fact with the information that he drew with Coetzee and lost to Berbick and I can't rate him higher than Witherspoon H2H. He is likely #4 or #5 on my 80's heavyweight list.

 

Sure he was, but that doesn’t mean a referee is making a bad call to stop a fight when a guy who has been knocked down (and rocked with hard punches a time or two before the knockdown) gets up and lets the other guy jump on him and throw a couple dozen shots — loading up several times and getting a lot of heavy leather through — while laying on the ropes without clinching, throwing a punch back, trying to get off the ropes … without doing ANYTHING to let the ref know he’s OK.

You don’t say ‘he’s a slow starter so who cares if he’s doing nothing to show he’s not completely out on his feet and he’s taking a beating … he’s a great finisher so let’s let him get beat on some more and see what happens.’

I might not have stopped it when Joey Curtis did, but I’d have probably stopped it after no more than two or three more punches.

If Weaver was OK enough to argue about it after, he should have been aware enough to know he needed to do something to show the ref he was OK. If you’re OK, throw a punch back.

 

The issue is this fight came not long after the Mancini vs Kim tragedy so that fight was still fresh in the memory. And the referee probably had that on his mind aswell and didn't want a death on his hands so jumped in a little too soon.

I think it was a bad stoppage but Weaver didn't throw back either so he didn't do himself any favours. I can't blame the referee because I can understand his concerns with the recent Mancini vs Kim fight and Weaver didn't throw a single punch back.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised.

A peak Witherspoon? So what, Witherspoon peaked for just 12 rounds in his life? He was past it 5 minutes later? Witherspoon fought Thomas just 15 months after he fought Holmes. He was actually in terrific shape and 2 1/2 pounds lighter than he was vs Holmes. He'd added three fights of experience to his 15 fight total at the time he fought Holmes and was defending his newly won WBC title for the first time.

The fact of the matter is that Pink was simply too good for him. People have trouble getting their head around it due to his entertaining and close challenge vs Holmes. Holmes had slipped and lost a step. Pink's jab gave Witherspoon more trouble, he took flush Witherspoon punches better and he simply didn't let him get momentum. He stood tall and flat and led with his jackhammer of a jab and dodged punches expertly with his oft forgotten reflexes. When hit flush his concrete jaw was unscathed. Witherpoon tried to come on at various points but simply could not solve the puzzle nor weaken his resolve as Pink fought back hard when he had to. Thomas cruised the last 3 rounds such was his lead. Staleness was setting in with Holmes and he and Thomas of this night would have been a close fight with Thomas having a very real chance of winning it.

Thomas didn't lose a fight from 1978 thru 1985. He was short of contenders but beat two of the very best of the era in Witherspoon and Weaver, back to back mind you.

He also beat Weaver impressively. The Coetzee draw was Pink's first big fight and he did well after a slow start. It was a solid showing vs a top 5 heavyweight. What about Witherspoon losing to Smith? What about some opining Snipes nipped Witherspoon? You can't say Tim was green when he peaked (for you) next fight can you?

You give Witherspoon the bizarre excuse of looking like he was on drugs but what about Thomas suddenly losing Dundee as a trainer after having him for Weaver and Witherspoon? What about Thomas being in the middle of a divorce? If anyone looked a bit spaced out it was Thomas vs Berbick. Comments were made in some fight reports that weren't far off this. He was terribly flat.

Having said all that Tim is as good a choice as any for #3. Most will pick him but i don't see him as a standout vs others. They all had their ups and downs. He'd never beat the Thomas he faced for mine, the question is his does better against the field at their finest?

One can make an argument for Weaver and Berbick, they are decent choices. Thomas is right in the argument. All these guys had big ups and downs so it's an open field. I agree with Devon that Page had the highest ceiling but he didn't reach it often enough and had some solid downs.

 

Angelo Dundee just prior to the Witherspoon bout *BOOM* - "Thomas is a flat-footed, stand-up boxer with amazing reflexes and a jab that could batter down doors. "It's as close to a Sonny Liston jab as I've ever seen," said trainer Angelo Dundee, who trained Liston's conqueror, Ali, and who was brought in to work with Thomas against Witherspoon. "It's a hard jab, and he's going to win the title with it."

 

"Peak" is not the same as "prime", I consider a fighter's "peak" to be a one time thing, whereas a fighter's "prime" may last for multiple years. Past Holmes and pre Thomas, he completely shut out Cummings in a ten rounder, smashed Tillis in one, then beat Page cleanly to gain the title- If he got any meaningful experience from either the Holmes or Page bouts, it sure didn't show against Pinklon. No matter how much lighter he was, no matter how many fights he fought before that loss, he undeniably looked slicker and smarter against Larry.

If Thomas really was simply "too good" for Witherspoon, it would be easily seen. In the few times I've seen that match, I've never seen anything other than a close encounter with a tight decision. No 117-110 shut out, no outclassing on Pinklon's part, but rather a tough heavyweight fight that made both men give it all they could.

Coetzee was not Pinklon's first big fight, his previous match was against James Tillis, who had just come off of a good win against Shavers and would go on to fight a hard match and even drop Page in his next encounter- Whereas Gerrie was no doubt a big name, but certainly wasn't as largely regarded as he would be after his following match. We BOTH know what happened the night of his rematch with Smith, so I don't know why that is relevant here. I also think that Snipes (Should've) won the bout against Tim, and that it likely tought Witherspoon more than his fights with either Holmes or Page did, which led to him being more strategic against Larry. Tim was not green against Snipes, but I do think that the version of Witherspoon from the Holmes fight would win against him (In a tight match of course, same as I believe he would against Thomas).

If it is such a bizarre excuse, then why mention it for Thomas? He definitely didn't look to be in peak shape for Berbick due to his performance, but if it's such a bizarre excuse for Witherspoon, then why wouldn't it be for Pinklon? Thomas losing Dundee surely has nothing to do with his fight against Witherspoon, and his divorce with his wife surely didn't do much either to effect his mentality during the fight. Pinklon was on the rise and starting to peak, whereas Witherspoon was starting to decline (Yes, I consider Tim to be a fighter who peaked very early, despite his otherwise good consistency past here and through the 90s, just compare the Holmes fight to the Tubbs or Bruno fights). Thomas was off of heroine, and beating his biggest opponent yet alongside addiction, hell, he promised his SON that he'd win the title, because it was the only gift he wanted for his birthday.

Peak versions of Tim, Thomas, Page, and Snipes are likely the best picks for the rank, but we have to squabble over details because of how messy the division was at the time. Tillis also probably could've gotten a spot up there if he planted his feet and threw more often, but who knows.

I do consider Berbick and Weaver to be likely next in line, but below most of these guys. Weaver likely goes over Berbick, and then is either above or below the best version of Snipes depending on how you see it.

 

Obviously peak is not prime. Peak is not often 12 rounds either, unless in jest. Peak can easily last 2-3 years as well.

Exactly, Timmy was in top form going into Thomas but wasn't good enough, by a good margin too mind. You don't think beating world class contenders garners confidence and experience? You don't think he gained any experience fighting ATG Holmes over 12 rounds? Right LOL. Bizarre.

It didn't show against Pink because he still wasn't good enough and Thomas was a great foil to his strengths. He looked slicker and smarter against Holmes because Holmes was aging and sliding, or did you not notice that either? His jab had lost some snap and Witherspoon, while he didn't outjab him, got around it at various points and had good success at times via his own jab.

I just watched the first seven rounds of Thomas and Witherspoon to make sure i wasn't misremembering. I wasn't. Tim came out energetic and outworked Thomas in the first round and outjabbed him. There was more of the same in the second until Thomas loosened up a bit late. The commentators were impressed by how busy Tim was. In the third Thomas landed some big punches and took over the fight from there. Thomas, fully into the fight, dictated proceedings as Witherspoon's workrate dropped off, importantly after being pinned hard the round before. As noted by the commentators, Thomas had no respect for Witherspoon's power while Witherspoon looks very wary of Thomas'.

I think it was round 7 where Timmy dropped a flurry of big punches on Thomas and Thomas came straight back with multiple big punches of his own to fight Witherspoon clean off, ironically just as Holmes did in their famous 9th round. Dumbed down - Witherspoon's aggression and offense were hampered by Thomas' power and his willingness to let his hands go with no fear. This was the crux of the fight and determined the result. The Thomas jab from about the end of round 3 forward had started to pound Witherspoon's face on a regular basis and he couldn't do much of anything about it. Witherspoon was never going to win at this point.

It was easily seen. The decision wasn't tight, Thomas won comfortably. Thomas was in control from round three. You are watching a different fight. On one hand you have Timmy looking like he was drugged and on another he is giving it all he could. One of these is not like the other. No-one thought Witherspoon won or drew. 117-110 is not a shut out either.

Thomas was a late substitute for Tim Witherspoon when he fought Tillis. Tillis was out partying when the fight was called off when he discovered they found a replacement. Tillis may have been in the bottom of the top 10 while meanwhile Coetzee had been a top 5 contender for some years and was around 4 when he fought Thomas. The fights just aren't that comparable.

If Tim wasn't green against Snipes what on earth was he? He'd never fought a contender. He'd had just 14 fights. He had just 63 professional rounds under his belt and there was no quality opponents in that lot. He had a measly 6 amateur fights. Snipes was a big step up. He was the definition of green for heavens sake.

So Tim learnt more against Snipes in 10 rounds than he did against Page and Holmes over 24? An ATG and a top 5 contender? Both who beat Snipes?

I mentioned it to point out the obvious double standards. so Pinklon losing one of the greatest trainers ever, a great motivator who was hugely animated getting going against Witherspoon didn't matter? His ongoing divorce "surely did nothing either?

Pinklon was "starting" to peak in his 26th fight where as Witherspoon was starting to decline after 19 fights? You can't make this **** up. After Thomas beat Weaver he was never the same again. One might suspect that heroine addiction in his youth years just may have cut into his athletic prime. Witherspoon had top shelf fights after Thomas, the win over smith was up there with his best outings.

Snipes doesn't remotely belong with those other 3. He doesn't belong with Berbick either, nor Weaver when assessed with some logic. Heaps of other fighters would also be mentioned before Tillis.

Yes agreed. Dokes was hit and miss but he's not far back either. Page is in the guts of it as well.

 

Ney, I should add to what I previously offered that Ali's speech rate slowed 16% after Shavers. That's pretty objective. No such deterioration in his speech occurred following Manila.