Who was the first elite super heavyweight?

He also looks much more skilled in the Dempsey training footage than Carnera or Willard imo,

 

Jess Willard. He was 6'6 245 pounds and heavyweight champion of the world when there was only 1 title per weight class. Can't get more elite than that.

 

Most of what I know about Tate comes from press bragging on a man who beat him. That alone doesn't make him elite but does raise the obvious question. If not elite what was he? Just the gatekeeper everyone proved themselves against is all? I'm not sure I agree with the is all. Maybe, mcvey ain't a know-nothing for sure so I'm probably just ill informed myself.

 

What in Tate's record suggests he was elite?

 

The fact Willard got that title over Fulton, Coffey etc is really just circumstance. Not that Willard wasn't undeserving of being champ but him being elevated because he won the belt and those guys didn't is unfair given the context of the era.

 

ELITE = A select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society:

 

I think Coffey was better than Willard but Fulton was WAY better than Willard.

 

I would think Primo Carnera, you may have to stretch to say elite, but he fits the prototype (6'5, 240+, multiple defense world champ).

 

Its a stretch to call a multi defense world champ elite?

Y'all think elite means semi divine or something.

 

When dealing with ATG comparisons it's fair make the stance the men who actually watched them are the best judges of ability but not when dealing with their contemporaries?

If not the champ then just boxrec and infer from there?

Seems like people justify stances per situation rather than having any real principles. I do mean that in a rhetorical sense, not personally, I'll not put words in your mouth.

 

In Tate's case Kid Norfolk ,giving him 53lbs thrashed him.
imo There is nothing on Tate's resume to suggest he was ever a standout .

 

Tate started his career 2-9 after being thrown to the wolves then finished 28-20. People got to grade the resumes of fighters who contended for the "colored" title on a curve because of how many times they had to rematch the other top black fighters. Tate got thrown to the wolves and survived and was the 2nd or 3rd best black HW for an extended period of time.

In terms of Fulton, Coffey, Morris and co in the late 1910s no one got a title shot from 1916-1919 and the title was informally frozen. Whether or not someone became a champion or fought for a belt should not play a part in evaluation so much as an informal sense of who the best active HW was. And all three men held the spot of number 1 contender during Willards reign. Along with Billy Miske and Jack Dempsey.

When I think of superheavyweights who were just short of being elite I'm thinking of Andre Anderson. We should be having a discussion about Jose Santa and Victorio Campolo. Carnera and Tate? What are we doing? Buddy Baer retired at 27 as the number 2 HW with a record of 57-7 and over 90% KOs. And he wasn't "elite" apparently.

Honestly the definition of "elite" this thread is using is a little strict for even ATG.

 

Kid Norfolk is in the IBHOF and was on the level of a Miske or a Greb.

2 of the 3 fights went the distance.

 

I cannot find any reason to rate Tate better than Jack Thompson, Norfolk, Gunboat, Godfrey-re they all elite?-not to mention Langford ,Wills, Jeannette.

 

Maybe he had standout performances in one of his performances against top fighters which built his reputation despite not winning, kinda like Corbett? I don’t see why he’d be regarded highly at the time either strictly by win resume