Who was the first elite super heavyweight?

have not read the thread or the definition of superheavyweight.

lennox seems an obvious answer to me.

that's the guy who was on top when hw size really changed.

 

The first major change happened around 1980. I’m pretty sure the late 90s guys were similar in height to them and maybe a few pounds heavier.

 

When was Tate ever the second or third best Black heavyweight?

 

1979 Jimmy Abbott deserves a mention. 6-5, 260. A specimen by any measure.

 

Its hard to say because Jeanette and Johnson were in their late 30s and Jeanette didn't fight Tate after early 1915. But the idea is that Wills and Langford are the top 2. Godfrey debuts at the end of the decade.

But lets say you're right he wasn't 2nd or 3rd, your account is named after a "colored" champ who was never the 2nd or 3rd best black heavyweight. And clearly you think he was elite despite taking mostly losses against Wills, Langford, Johnson and Jeanette.

 

My UN has nothing to do with this debate.
McVey was in the top 3 challengers to Johnson for an extended period.
His record is74-14-10.
All but 1 loss were to quality men.
If ,as you contend , "Tate was "thrown to the wolves ," early in his career
Wasn't McVey?
Two fights with Johnson ,2 fights with Denver Ed Martin,whilst still a teenager.
Tate lost to journeymen
Green
Watkins
Rojas
McKay , Victor McGlaglen's brother.
Delaney .
Couldnt beat fringe contenders Jack Thompson or John Lester Johnson,both of whom McVey defeated multiple times.
Tate lost nearly half his fights.
No comparison

 

Top 3 challengers means 4th.

 

Something Tate never was.
"Tate was big and strong and very quick for such a big man; However, he never proved out in actual top-flight competition; He was a favorite sparring partner for Jack Dempsey"
CBZ.

McVea was a big, powerful heavyweight who relied more upon his brute strength than slick boxing skills; He was strong, quick and game; Sam fought mostly "name" black fighters during his career

McVea was a member of the great black foursome of the teens along with Jack Johnson, Sam Langford and Joe Jeannette; He was inducted into the Ring Boxing Hall of Fame in 1986 and the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1999
CBZ

Tate couldnt beat,black boxers
John Lester Johnson
Kid Norfolk
Battling Jim Johnson
Jack Thompson
Bearcat Wright
Silas Green At 5' 6 1/2in" 44lbs lighter.

 

He was a member of a foursome that means he was 4th. For large stretches of time he was 5th because Wills hit the scene.

Tate couldn't beat Jim Johnson cause he fought him in his 4th pro fight when he was a teenager and Jim Johnson was in his prime. Besides that and one Norfolk fight every other loss Tate suffered to these guys was via decision. He fought Lester Johnson and Green when he was very young too. Also Tate beat Silas Green in their first fight.

Yes and McVea won less than 30% of the time against those name fighters.

The point is not that Tate is better than McVea or that McVea wasn't elite its that Tate was generally ranked higher.

 

Tate lost ! Whether by ko or decision,he lost!
Name one boxing writer of any standing who ranks Tate above McVey or on a par with him?
Tate lost to.
Wright when he was 31.
Abbot when he was 29.
Thompson when he was 21 and 25.
Norfolk when he was 21and 24.

 

BTW i'd say McVey was top 2/3 Black fighter at several times in his career.

 

Bro I bought your book, loved it to death, still opening it here and there to remember the details of plenty of things you covered in that book. Mass respect man, and I know I've glowed on you before bud my dude it's a very good book and you deserve the shine.

That said, usually on the good or bad subject with black HWs narrative is what drives the posthumous rating. I honestly thought, you know, since Dempsey exhibited with him, kept him around for training, and Norfolk's entire call for a title fight rested on his performances against guys like Tate, Panama, and Greb I just assumed he had some level of narrative explanation that explained why people saw him as someone to tour with or the press to pressure Jack with.

I can accept that there is no narrative and he was not actually elite just fine, but bros, both you dudes know pounding the record doesn't and shouldn't mean much. Black man's records and ratings in the 19-teens? Rating? Kinda lost me with that convo. The record being not great ain't nothing new to any of us.


So I'll say it like this. I'll follow y'all lead based on your proven track records, each, but you both have to know you didn't even really try to prove your point. You just splashed opinion at us and told us but look at boxrec doe. c'mon guys, right or wrong that's a **** poor showing. I say this with love bros.

 

John Tate was 6'4 and 230+ pounds i guess he could qualify for an elite Super Heavyweight for a short period he was ranked as the number 2 Heavyweight in the world.

Bowe's best weight was under 240 pounds so i don't see why we have to limit the weight to only 240 pounds i think 230 pounds would be a good limit.

 

Thanks for buying my book and giving the praise. I think you be correct about a lazy response so I'll try and address this shortly!

 

Yeah man, I do not mean to be a dick I just don't think telling me about a fella takes much effort. At least give us something to look up outside of boxrec. I think most people will be in my boat. What I know of Tate comes from Norfolk and Dempsey and such so, just as he was a big man who could take a lot of damage but couldn't give it well or some such if fine. I don't know the narrative of Tate much at all. I don't know if what I wrote as an example was bang on or way off.