Who was the greatest and WHY: Oscar v Tito

Thread Stealer · Aug 14, 2008

PACFAN84 said:

NOV 1992: De La Hoya turns pro

MAR 1994: Wins 1st world title 18 months later at age of 21 with a 11-0 record, WBO super-feather, stopping Jimmy Bredahl (16-0)

JUL 1994: Wins 2nd world title, WBO lightweight title, 4 months later by KOing Jorge Paez (53-6-4) in 2 rounds

1995: Stops Rafael Ruelas (43-1) in a unification fight, then stops Genaro Hernandez (32-0-1). Ends the 3rd year of his career at #4 The Ring p4p, behind Whitaker, Jones Jr and Ricardo Lopez, and ahead of Trinidad, Tszyu and Barrera

Wins The Ring Fighter Of The Year for 1995

JUN 1996: Stops Julio Cesar Chavez (96-1-1) to win world title at a THIRD weight division in his 4th year as a pro. Record is only 21-0 and he is just 23

APR 1997: Beat Pernell Whitaker (40-1-1) to win a world title at a FOURTH weight division. He is now p4p #2 behind Roy Jones Jr, and the 1st man ever to legitimately defeat Whitaker (his only other loss a ridiculous robbery decision to Jose Luis Ramirez in 1988 which was subsequently avenged)- the decision over Whitaker was very very close, but it was right IMO

SEP 1997: His last fight before his 5 year anniversary in November, a landslide points win over Hector Camacho (63-3-1).

His record is now 25-0(20), and he has won FIVE world titles at THREE weights (WBO super-feather, WBO & IBF light, WBC light-welter, WBC welter)

He is now The Ring's no1 pound-for-pound fighter on the planet- ahead of a peak Roy Jones Jr at #2, Holyfield #3 and Trinidad #4.

Has any fighter in history ever had a better first 5 years than this????
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http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2246215&postcount=115

DINAMITA · Aug 14, 2008

Thread Stealer said:

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2246215&postcount=115
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I do remember reading your response threadstealer, and very very good reading it was too :good

I just posted this quickly as some imbecile started tearing strips off De La Hoya's lower weight career, while I bought time to write a proper post in response to him.

Cheers

MacManJr. · Aug 14, 2008

Dave_TheGreat said:

People want to say Floyd ducked people, well Oscar is the bigger ducker. His whole career is defined by losing the big fights and by who he never fought.
================
At 130:
WBC Champion Azumah Nelson? WBC Champion Gabriel Ruelas? Oh, and please, De La Hoya people. Don't be confused. Oscar fought RAFAEL Ruelas, not Gabriel. You know, the Ruelas brother that WASN'T champ.
Somehow, Oscar managed to stay away from these guys. He didn't want a shot at their titles and I guess they weren't worthy of a match to unify the titles? Of course not. Instead, Oscar went after the weakest man at 130. Johnny Bredahl.

At 135:
WBA Champion Orzubek Nazarov? That bum was 23-0 with 16 KOs. Yeah, I can see why Oscar didn't want to meet him. Then there's WBO Champion Giovanni Parisi. You know, another nobody with a record of 27-1 with 19 KOs.

At 140:
IBF Champion Kostya Tszyu. Ever hear of him? He was 20-1-1 with 14 KOs. Was he also not worthy of a fight with De La Hoya? If you say so, you're an idiot. Then there's WBA Champion Juan Martin Coggi. His terrible record was 63-3-2 with 40 KO's. Are you actually going to argue that HE didn't qualify for a shot at De La Hoya's title...or that De La Hoya should not have fought for Coggi's belt? You can say Coggi wasn't that great, but if that's true, all the more reason for the ultra-careful Oscar to fight him. Also at this weight division at that time was future champ, Frankie Randall. Oscar steered away from him as well.
Oh, and Giovanni Parisi, the former champ at 135 was also WBO champ at 140, but Oscar ducked him TWICE.

At 147:
IBF Champion Vernon Forrest. He had the belt for the last TWO YEARS that Oscar fought as a welterweight. Somehow, Oscar missed him. Forrest, at that time, was 34-0-1 with 25 KOs. Yeah, De La Hoya fans. Vernon was a joke, right? Oscar shouldn't have wasted his time fighting him. Fine.
Then how come Oscar also didn't fight WBA Champion Ike Quartey? Yes, I know, I know. Oscar fought Quartey, correct? He sure did. TWO YEARS after Quartey was champ. Besides, many boxing writers believe Quartey actually won that fight. What a brave warrior Oscar is! Last, but not least, was WBO Champion Jose Luis Lopez. What a girl. He only had a record of 36-3-2 with 30 KOs. When you look at who Oscar didn't fight, it's a pretty impressive list!

At 154:
From 2001 - 2003, Oscar moved up to this division. Who did he forget to fight? Oh, there was that punk, IBF Champion Winky Wright. Yeah, I guess Oscar never heard of him and figured his fans wouldn't want to see it? At that time, Winky's record was 46-3 with 24 KOs.
How about WBA Champion Alejandro Garcia? At the time, he was sporting a record of 24-1 with 23 KOs. How about WBO Champion Harry Simon? You know, that dude who was 23-0 with 17 KOs? Or his successor, WBO Champion Daniel Santos? 23-2-1 with 20 KOs.

via http://bleacherreport.com/articles/24375-boxing-buddy-who-did-oscar-de-la-hoya-duck-almost-everybody================

Oscar is a joke.
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this has gotta be the greatest post ever on Oscar!

Spitbucket · Aug 14, 2008

MacManJr. said:

this has gotta be the greatest post ever on Oscar!
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Totally biased bull**** using 20/20 hindsight.atsch

charlievint · Aug 14, 2008

PACFAN84 said:

***if you are the type of poster who writes "nuthugger", "hater", "Oscarsexual", or any of that pathetic childish embarrassing ****, this thread is not for you, go post your baby-vomit somewhere else. This thread is for a serious debate on two brilliant boxers***
(Yes, TWO brilliant boxers. This thread is NOT designed to insult or abuse Trinidad or his fans, or just guys who think he was the better boxer. I loved watching Trinidad fight, but my OBJECTIVE belief is that De La Hoya proved to be the greater fighter in all-time pound-for-pound terms)

My reasons are thus:

- De La Hoya outboxed Trinidad when they fought, and should have got the decision

- Trinidad never rebounded properly after his 1st loss. After losing to Hopkins at the age of 28, he only won another two fights- against Hacine Cherifi (who??) and Mayorga. Coming back strong after a loss is a mark of a true great IMO

- Trinidad was shown to be a one-dimensional fighter. When he met guys who could outbox him and nullify his power- De La Hoya, Hopkins, Wright- he lost. He didn't have a plan B. Again, great fighters do.
(I don't count the Jones loss in this thread, Tito was shot by then, rustier than the Titanic, and too far above his natural fighting weight for it to mean anything)

- De La Hoya won more world titles at more weight divisions

- De La Hoya was ranked p4p# 1 for a time, Trinidad never was

De La Hoya had a much better resume:
As far as I know, they fought 7 of the same guys, and got the same result in each one.

BERNARD HOPKINS
Dominated and stopped Trinidad, was ahead on 2 judges cards when he stopped De La Hoya
Even (though De La Hoya was much closer on the scorecards, ahead on 1)

PERNELL WHITAKER
Trinidad wide UD, De La Hoya controversial yet still pretty wide UD
Trinidad better performance (though Whitaker older by then, but still Tito better here)

HECTOR CAMACHO
Both wide UD
Even

OBA CARR
Trinidad TKO8, De La Hoya TKO11
Trinidad stops him earlier

YORI BOY CAMPAS
Trinidad TKO4, De La Hoya TKO7
Trinidad stops him earlier

RICARDO MAYORGA
Trinidad TKO8, De La Hoya TKO6
De La Hoya stops him earlier

FERNANDO VARGAS
Trinidad TKO12, De La Hoya TKO11
De La Hoya stops him earlier

So I think they were definitely dead even by their fights against the same guys. Trinidad was better against an older Whitaker, but De La Hoya performed better in the big fights as he stopped Vargas and Mayorga earlier, and IMO Vargas & Mayorga at light-middle were more difficult opponents for both Oscar and Tito than Oba Carr and Yori Boy Campas, and DLH performed better against Hopkins despite being stopped earlier.

HOWEVER, in the rest of the resume De La Hoya is far better IMO. The only other names on Trinidad's resume are David Reid and William Joppy (good not great), and Winky Wright.

Wright was an embarrassing loss for Trinidad. He was utterly dominated for every round, even worse than against Hopkins. This never happened to De La Hoya.

When you consider Reid and Joppy, then think of:

Ike Quartey - worldclass fighter, worldclass win
Floyd Mayweather - p4p#1 that DLH took to a split decision at age 35
Shane Mosley - I strongly believe De La Hoya won the 2nd fight

And I suppose guys like Genaro Hernandez, Miguel Angel Gonzalez and Julio Cesar Chavez could be included in that, but I prefer to concentrate on those three- three top top quality names on DLH's record that aren't on Trinidad's, and I think DLH went 2-2 in 4 fights with them (lost Mosley I and Mayweather, won Quartey and Mosley II).

AND SO, that's my reasons for believing Oscar De La Hoya should be ranked higher in all-time pound-for-pound terms than Felix Trinidad.

***if you do respond to argue that Trinidad was greater, please write a list of reasons the way I did, I am very interested in a debate about these two guys- NO INSULTS about the other guy, why do you think 1 guy is better, more positive comments about your chosen guy please than negative about the other!!***
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Both are great....DLH is just a little bit better overall.

MacManJr. · Aug 14, 2008

Spitbucket said:

Totally biased bull**** using 20/20 hindsight.atsch
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I know but it sounded good. lol

Thread Stealer · Aug 14, 2008

DLH has the better overall resume, and narrowly won their fight on my card.

Obviously popularity and politics plays a part in the opposition level so it was easier for DLH to get more big fights, but it is what it is.

Tito has the edge in common opponents however.

MacManJr. · Aug 14, 2008

I pick Tito and honestly he became a legend with quite possibly the worst trainer in boxing history. He had to beat his opponent and his dad.

PJ · Aug 14, 2008

ODLH by far and there is no comparison.

Thread Stealer · Aug 14, 2008

MacManJr. said:

I pick Tito and honestly he became a legend with quite possibly the worst trainer in boxing history. He had to beat his opponent and his dad.
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Bazooka · Aug 14, 2008

Jack Presscot said:

:good :good :good :yep
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Wow, Jack Finally agrees with me:happy

MacManJr. · Aug 14, 2008

Thread Stealer said:

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You can't say I'm lying. Not only did he have NO CLUE what to say but he'd smack the **** outta Tito in the corner! :rofl

sdsfinest22 · Aug 14, 2008

Jack Presscot said:

I am not a Hater. But you are a pathetic Oscarsexual, constantly trying to shine a light on the Golden Panties of Boxing. The amount of nuthugging for Oscar de la Hoya is amazing, hell, look at Beware of Dawg, Oscar had to install a Trapeeze seat on his scrotum sac for this guy to hang off of, as he was developing shoulder problems from hanging on Oscar's balls all day. So heres some warm, fetid baby vomit for you to guzzle down, like an Olympic runner guzzling down Evian after a long hard run.

115-114, 6-5-1, Trinidad W12 DLH. As long as I am a member of East Side Boxing, I shall continue to remind Oscar's childish and immature fanbase of this sad fact.

Trinidad did fine after he lost to Hopkins. By then, there was little left for Trinidad to accomplish anyway, he was one of the the Longest Reigning WW Champions, and in erasing Oscar's "0" from his record, and taking Oscar's WBC belt, the Earth shall always be greatful. Tito did his best against the much larger Hopkins, and lost in a weight class he had no real business in. No shame there whatsoever. WBC and IBF gold at WW. Then he shot for Jr. middlweight Gold against David Reid, an accomplished Gold Medalist, and almost put him in the ER. Then, he went after Fernando Vargas and showed Fernando who "Daddy" was inside the ropes. Califas never fared well against Puerto Rico. Finally, after clearing the jr. middles, he went after Middlweight Gold and nearly decapitated WBA titleholder William Joppy in the process, gaining final revenge for Roberto Duran. Then he faced the Ultimate Challenge and lost, but Jermain Taylor got revenge for us all.

Afterwards, he beat Hassine Cherifi, and Ricardo Mayorga in a Fight of the Year Candidate, and went on to face two fighters that still make Oscar pee in his pants. Winky Wright, and RJJ. He lost over 24 rounds, but what a ****ing resume.

Oscar de la Hoya still regrets never giving Trinidad a rematch to try to regain his lost manhood.

DLH never had any degree of longevity. He would win Organizational Titles and FAIL at uniting them, except for when he fought Tito's little son, Fernando Vargas. Oscar made a career out of fighting Tito's leftovers, like Campas, Camacho, Mayo and of course, Feroz. It is said that Oscar still sends Tito thank you cards every year for Christmas.

Oscar got gift Decisions against Quartey, Whitaker, and ESPECIALLY Felix Sturm. I challenge any Oscar nutriders to debate me on the Sturm Robbery.

Thanks for playing!:good
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OSCAR HAS HAD THE FAR BETTER CAREER AND HAS FACED EVERYTHING..OSCAR ALSO ISNT LAZY AND FAT SO HE FIGHTS IN A WEIGHT CLASS HE HAS NO BUSINESS IN....I LIKE TITO MORE THAN OSCAR BUT ILL ADMIT OSCAR HAS TAKEN ON MORE CHALLENGES...ALTHOUGH NOW OSCAR IS A PUNK CUZ HE RUNS FROM FIGHTERS LIKE MARGARITO

the_truth · Aug 14, 2008

interesting, you could also make an argument DLH fought some of Trinidads left over that were severely beaten... William Joppy and David Reed were def. no push overs... at the end of the day both fighters were great... Trinidad was more of a risk taker and faced everyone at anytime. in my opinion..

Spitbucket · Aug 14, 2008

the_truth said:

interesting, you could also make an argument DLH fought some of Trinidads left over that were severely beaten... William Joppy and David Reed were def. no push overs... at the end of the day both fighters were great... Trinidad was more of a risk taker and faced everyone at anytime. in my opinion..
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Agree. but he will always fall slightly below DLH on most non-biased PFP and ATG lists!

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